sovereigngrace
Puritan Board Freshman
Fair enough.
What is the purpose of the millennium according to historic premillennialism
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Fair enough.
sovereigngrace
Puritan Board Freshman
This is one of many reasons that I abandoned Premillennialism. It wasn't just the lack of corroboration, it was the fact that what Premillennialists impute into Revelation 20 doesn't make sense and largely isn't even in the text. It is totally confusing.
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RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Maybe. I don't find it totally confusing. If I were to write a book on it and were subsequently overwhelmed by the problems you say are there, then maybe. Sure, problems are there. Any human system has problems and tensions.
sovereigngrace
Puritan Board Freshman
One just has to read this thread to see that Premil has no clear biblical support for its fundamentals. Its main tenets cannot be fully explained, as they do not add up or make sense.
sovereigngrace
Puritan Board Freshman
There is no corroboration that Satan will be bound for 1000 years in the future and then released to deceive countless billions who have sat under the unparalleled righteous rule of Christ on earth.
But there is multiple scripture to support the Amillennial position. Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection.
Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.
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RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
This response sort of illustrates an observation I made earlier (like page 1 or 2) in this thread: you have the same stock response to almost every other post. And since you implied that premils have the same outlook as Mormons who baptize for the dead, I can do one better: those who talk about nothing but eschatology sound a lot like hyper-preterists who talk of nothing but eschatology.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
In logic that is called an assertion. Or two of them.
sovereigngrace
Puritan Board Freshman
Ad hominem is a common tactic of Premils online when they are challenged. Basically: 'if you cannot attack the message, attack the messenger'. My reference to Mormonism was questioning the rubbishing of corroboration, which Premils do all the time. That is not the Reformed way! I stand by it.
It is time for Premils to actually address the topic under discussion. What is the purpose of your future millennium? 248 posts and we have nothing but avoidance and evasion.
sovereigngrace
Puritan Board Freshman
No, it is called facts (and facts are stubborn things)!!!
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
This is special pleading, meaning "Basically it's okay when I do it." Maybe I should throw in some !!!! for emphasis.
You get to imply we are Mormons but when we point out that you, like full preterists, talk about nothing but eschatology, it's suddenly ad hominem.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
They aren't self-evident facts. As the statement itself stands, it's just an assertion.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
You seem to get triggered any time there is the possibility that a premillennialist online exists, or even if someone doesn't agree with all of your analysis yet himself isn't premil.
sovereigngrace
Puritan Board Freshman
I am happy that observers can judge for themselves who is addressing the issues and who is not.
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sovereigngrace
Puritan Board Freshman
It is time for Premils to actually address the topic under discussion. What is the purpose of your future millennium? 254 posts and we still have nothing but avoidance and evasion.
Paul (or others) Do any premil commentators express a purpose for their version of the millennium? Following the thread I’ve become curious about this.
we would see this as when all of the enemies of Jesus are placed under His feet, and that the Messianic Age foreseen by OT prophets like Zechariah and Isaiah was Literally fulfillenment of the Kingdom in full upon the Earth.
Literal fulfillment of passages such as Zechariah 14 and Isaiah 65.
sovereigngrace
Puritan Board Freshman
What exactly in those two chapters need to be fulfilled? Where do they mention some suppose future millennium?
In that time, of Messianic Age, both saw all Earth converted to true God, Isreal restored under Messiah, and all of the nations worshipping only Yahweh. No more wst, famine, sickness, as curse lifted and now Paradise restored.
sovereigngrace
Puritan Board Freshman
Where does it say that?
But all the enemies of Jesus are not yet placed under his feet in this version of the millennium. Death is not. And there is yet to come a rebellion, correct?
sovereigngrace
Puritan Board Freshman
Thanks for your question!
Premils pull three major thoughts together, which result in their future millennial expectation: (1) their hyper-literal approach to OT prophecies requires a future fulfilment of the OT prophets predictions of a physical visible earthly zionist kingdom, on this earth, overseen by Christ, who they say will be reign from physical Jerusalem with a rod of iron. (2) They take the binding of Satan as literal, and argue that this is still not fulfilled because he still runs about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Premil sees the binding of Satan as a physical confinement in a physical pit, where he is allowed no contact with humans. (3) Because of their understanding of Ezekiel 40-47 and Zechariah 14 they foresee the full restoration of the old covenant arrangement in the future, including the re-introduce the abolished meat offerings sin offerings, trespass offerings, burnt offerings peace offerings and drink offerings. They also anticipate the raising up again of the Levitical priesthood.
Because of this, they anticipate this millennial age to be an age of Aquarius where sin, death, war and the wicked are banished or subjugated. It is a pristine earth where people live long lives, where the earth submits to the kingship of Christ, where the saints experience unparalleled material and natural blessing.
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sovereigngrace
Puritan Board Freshman
Your bipolar new earth is an unhealthy mixture of justice and injustice, deliverance and bondage, light and darkness, righteousness and unrighteousness, perfection and sin, glorification and corruption, sin and sinlessness, immortality and mortality, peace and harmony and war and terror.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Depends on the school of thought. For a dispensationalist everything is Israel. Leaving them aside, it just depends on the commentator. An exegete like Robert Mounce would say, "This is what I see the text saying. As to secret purposes, I leave that to others."
I have many responses and application from scripture based on the those scriptures Paul mentions. (1) Christ was given a Universal Kingdom based upon his Person and Work. (2) Lucifer has lost and is on open display and is bound from keeping the Nations of the world in darkness. Christ has purchased men from every nation. (3) The Church consists of both Jew and non-Jew now as all who are of the faith are noted to be Children of Abraham by faith. The gentile is grafted into the Olive tree. 4) The Gospel will go forth to every nation, tongue and tribe even though it will be opposed. But Satan can't stop it where the King has ordained it should go.
I also believe that the premil understanding gives the opportunity for evil to set up a hope for an earthly supposed utopia in which a reigning monarch will will deceive at the very last.
I don't believe he said you have the same outlook as Mormons. It was a comparison of both sides having the same methods for coming to a conclusion about something if I understood him.
Jacob, I appreciate Paul's work on this as it has root causes for why we do what we do in evangelism and why we shouldn't look for a golden utopia on this side of the final consummation. I was heavily involve in this kind of study over three decades ago because I was also surrounded by Premil thinking. It was invading sermons with very poor application. People were clambering to figure out the book of Revelation without any personal application for their lives. Some people might have thought it consumed me. But I sensed the applications and warnings were significant. There were root causes for doing what was right and dangers to be avoided. I believe this kind of work helped in that. Especially when you live amongst others who read booklets and evangelized based upon the latest Hal Lindsey book, It also set the study of scripture to focus in a different way. This removes the wasted time with the latest Clarence Larkin and Premil charts to focusing on the things that do matter, Christ's Mediatorial Kingship and Kingdom.
Yes, as death will be the final enemy conquered, and after the rebellion comes the eternal state, when Jesus turns His kingdom over to the Father.
We see the Messianic Age as far more than just the one where the spiritual kingdom is established, as we indeed see the binding of Satan to be as Him no longer to receive and also time if Paradise restored, as end times showed Earth under Antichrist, and afterwards, as ruled by true Christ.
How can any of that be when God himself is ruling over Mankind in A direct fashion then?
You didn't deal with anything in my post David. As usual. Just stop it.
David, You still have not answered these 4 questions properly. I see you tried to answer one. Please answer them.
@ Dachaser
1)Could you show me any Scripture that proves animal sacrifices will be re-introduced as ceremonial memorial sacrifices on the new earth?
2)Where does it teach in the New Testament that we should (or can) sacrifice animals to commemorate Christ's death?
3)Are Christ’s hands and feet not a satisfactory enough reminder of the cross for the inhabitants of the new earth?
4)Does Hebrews 10:1 not make clear that the Jewish ceremonial law was “a shadow of good things to come” not ‘good things that have been’? The ceremonial law is never depicted as looking back but always forward.
St. Paul gives us what will happen and there is no earthly set up as you describe in his theology.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
@ Dachaser
1)Could you show me any Scripture that proves animal sacrifices will be re-introduced as ceremonial memorial sacrifices on the new earth?
2)Where does it teach in the New Testament that we should (or can) sacrifice animals to commemorate Christ's death?
3)Are Christ’s hands and feet not a satisfactory enough reminder of the cross for the inhabitants of the new earth?
4)Does Hebrews 10:1 not make clear that the Jewish ceremonial law was “a shadow of good things to come” not ‘good things that have been’? The ceremonial law is never depicted as looking back but always forward.
St. Paul gives us what will happen and there is no earthly set up as you describe in his theology.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
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