What is the purpose of the millennium according to historic premillennialism

Status
Not open for further replies.
Dachaser said:
Interesting that many liked to say that a premil position died on the Chapter 20 misunderstanding, and get many holding to premil do not really even use that Chspter to reason from the scriptures.
Click to expand...

That is not true. That is all you have used. What exact Scriptures have you expounded to support Premil on this thread outside of Rev 19/20 theory?

Why have you not addressed my simply apt questions re your statements.
 
Dachaser said:
I was saying that right now God permits sin and evil acts to occur, but under His direct rule here there shall no longer be allowed any open acts of sinning against God.
Click to expand...

Where exactly do you get this in the Bible? How can those countless phonies (as the sand of the sea) who overrun your future millennium not sin? After all, they are deceived mortal regenerates?
 
sovereigngrace said:
How can those countless phonies (as the sand of the sea) who overrun your future millennium not sin? After all, they are deceived mortal regenerates?
Click to expand...

Paul,

Let's get David to focus on just a few pointed questions. Please don't bombard him with so much. I understand your frustration. Both sides are frustrated right now. Let's take the list I challenged him to interact with please. I jumped in late and Jacob seems frustrated with you too. Maybe we should just pick a few pointed questions each to get answered at a time. Let's not overwhelm each other.

The following was a good list for David to answer. I am sure Jacob has a few points he would like more clarity on. I don't know.


[QUOTE="sovereigngrace

@ Dachaser
Could you show me any Scripture that proves animal sacrifices will be re-introduced as ceremonial memorial sacrifices on the new earth?

Where does it teach in the New Testament that we should (or can) sacrifice animals to commemorate Christ's death?

Are Christ’s hands and feet not a satisfactory enough reminder of the cross for the inhabitants of the new earth?

Does Hebrews 10:1 not make clear that the Jewish ceremonial law was “a shadow of good things to come” not ‘good things that have been’? The ceremonial law is never depicted as looking back but always forward.
 
PuritanCovenanter said:
Paul,

Let's get David to focus on just a few pointed questions. Please don't bombard him with so much. I understand your frustration. Both sides are frustrated right now. Let's take the list I challenged him to interact with please. I jumped in late and Jacob seems frustrated with you too. Maybe we should just pick a few pointed questions each to get answered at a time. Let's not overwhelm each other.

The following was a good list for David to answer. I am sure Jacob has a few points he would like more clarity on. I don't know.


[QUOTE="sovereigngrace

@ Dachaser
Could you show me any Scripture that proves animal sacrifices will be re-introduced as ceremonial memorial sacrifices on the new earth?

Where does it teach in the New Testament that we should (or can) sacrifice animals to commemorate Christ's death?

Are Christ’s hands and feet not a satisfactory enough reminder of the cross for the inhabitants of the new earth?

Does Hebrews 10:1 not make clear that the Jewish ceremonial law was “a shadow of good things to come” not ‘good things that have been’? The ceremonial law is never depicted as looking back but always forward.
Click to expand...

Sounds good! I agree. I am trying to address each rabbit trail, although nothing is actually getting answered.
 
This is an old chart developed by Robert L. Whitelaw that I have thought to be very interesting through the years. William Cox had a similar one in his book on Amillennialism.

78548766_3161733907174954_4677185738570203136_o.jpg
 
Here they are.

[QUOTE="sovereigngrace

@ Dachaser
Could you show me any Scripture that proves animal sacrifices will be re-introduced as ceremonial memorial sacrifices on the new earth?

Where does it teach in the New Testament that we should (or can) sacrifice animals to commemorate Christ's death?

Are Christ’s hands and feet not a satisfactory enough reminder of the cross for the inhabitants of the new earth?

Does Hebrews 10:1 not make clear that the Jewish ceremonial law was “a shadow of good things to come” not ‘good things that have been’? The ceremonial law is never depicted as looking back but always forward.
 
Just an observation: a literal reading of Revelation 20 doesn't entail animal sacrifices. It only does if you couple it with Ezekiel 40-48.
 
sovereigngrace said:
So do you couple it with Ezekiel 40-48, as most Premils do?
Click to expand...

I lean towards no. It's not a big part in my larger hermeneutical grid (and I don't hold to several premil conclusions, though I tend to see a darkening of culture, etc; I've made that clear numerous times in this thread).
 
Last edited:
BayouHuguenot said:
I lean towards no. It's not a big part in my larger hermeneutical grid (and I don't hold to several premil conclusions, though I tend to see a darkening of culture, etc; I've made that clear numerous times in this thread).
Click to expand...

I am glad to hear that.

So does death continue in your expected future millennium?
 
sovereigngrace said:
I am glad to hear that.

So does death continue in your expected future millennium?
Click to expand...

Maybe, maybe not. I'm still pursuing other angles. As I said before, all sides have to cheat a bit to make their system work. Premils have the problem of taking Ezek. 40-48 literally. Amils take a crayon and write "church" over the material promises in the OT. I haven't really come across any deal-makers on either side.

Also, I study and write on stuff besides eschatolgoy.
 
I tie it into Ezeckiel Temple prophecy, and also into Isaiah, when all of the nations shall travel to Messiah and to pay homage to Him, and to be obeying Him as one true Lord.
Reply to posting 220.
 
Dachaser said:
Did below, can we address my concerns in those passages now?
Click to expand...

There are four questions David. Reply to them in order.

@ Dachaser
Could you show me any Scripture that proves animal sacrifices will be re-introduced as ceremonial memorial sacrifices on the new earth?

Where does it teach in the New Testament that we should (or can) sacrifice animals to commemorate Christ's death?

Are Christ’s hands and feet not a satisfactory enough reminder of the cross for the inhabitants of the new earth?

Does Hebrews 10:1 not make clear that the Jewish ceremonial law was “a shadow of good things to come” not ‘good things that have been’? The ceremonial law is never depicted as looking back but always forward.

David, I am only trying to guide you in interacting here sufficiently on the Puritanboard. I am not trying to be harsh on you or change your mind about your position. Your interaction method here has to change as we (the staff) have tried to tell you so many times before.
 
Last edited:
BayouHuguenot said:
Maybe, maybe not. I'm still pursuing other angles. As I said before, all sides have to cheat a bit to make their system work. Premils have the problem of taking Ezek. 40-48 literally. Amils take a crayon and write "church" over the material promises in the OT. I haven't really come across any deal-makers on either side.

Also, I study and write on stuff besides eschatolgoy.
Click to expand...

I don't believe Amils have any such difficulty. Most believe Ezekiel 40-48 is a detailed conditional vision. It was not some distant prophecy, as some suggest.

Ezekiel 43:10 outlines the gist and purpose of the vision of the temple, saying, “Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.”

Clearly God was making a genuine offer to Israel if they would only repent. Sadly, they didn't and they never entered into the reality of that offer. God simply wanted Israel to “be ashamed of their iniquities.” This was nothing new; in fact, that has always been God’s desire for His people.

Ezekiel 43:11 continues, “And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.”

This improved arrangement was never realised. Scripture and history proves that Israel remained in grievous apostasy. Despite God’s offer of better things, they persisted in their stubborn rebellion. The plan was not therefore realised because of disobedience.
 
Last edited:
Dachaser said:
I tie it into Ezeckiel Temple prophecy, and also into Isaiah, when all of the nations shall travel to Messiah and to pay homage to Him, and to be obeying Him as one true Lord.
Reply to posting 220.
Click to expand...

You have not addressed my questions. I have shown you that the NT forbids your argument.

What are the following for? Whose sins and tresspasses?

The meat offering – Ezekiel 42:13, 44:29, 45:15, 17, 24, 25, 46:5, 7, 11, 14, 15, 20.

The sin offering – Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 19, 21, 22, 25, 44:27, 29, 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 46:20.

The trespass offering – Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 44:29, 46:20.

The burnt offerings – Ezekiel 40:38, 39, 42, 43:18, 24, 27, 44:11, 45:15, 17, 23, 25, 46:2, 4, 12, 13, 15.

The peace offerings – Ezekiel 43:27, 45:15, 17, 46:2, 12.

The drink offerings – Ezekiel 45:17.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
Maybe, maybe not. I'm still pursuing other angles. As I said before, all sides have to cheat a bit to make their system work. Premils have the problem of taking Ezek. 40-48 literally. Amils take a crayon and write "church" over the material promises in the OT. I haven't really come across any deal-makers on either side.

Also, I study and write on stuff besides eschatolgoy.
Click to expand...

Who are all the wicked mortals who populate the future Premil millennium and give allegiance to Satan at the end? Basically: where do they come from and what qualifies them to escape the wrath of God that accompanies His return?
 
Last edited:
sovereigngrace said:
Who are all the wicked mortals who populate the future Premil millennium and give allegiance to Satan at the end? Basically: where do they come from and what qualifies them to escape the wrath of God that accompanies His return?
Click to expand...
They are those born in that Kingdom age under Christ, and they avoided judgment, as that was not until GWT at end of Messianic Age.
 
Dachaser said:
They are those born in that Kingdom age under Christ, and they avoided judgment, as that was not until GWT at end of Messianic Age.
Click to expand...

I was actually addressing that question to Jacob.

I was asking you what sins and tresspasses are removed through your ceremonial sacrifices?

Jacob doesn't believe in them - you (and most Premils) do.
 
Dachaser said:
They are those born in that Kingdom age under Christ, and they avoided judgment, as that was not until GWT at end of Messianic Age.
Click to expand...

Could you furnish me with Scripture that proves this instead of these evasive soundbites? What qualifies this group, who are manifestly too righteous to be included among the wicked and be destroyed but equally too wicked to be included among the righteous and be glorified, to escape the wrath of God?
 
sovereigngrace said:
Could you furnish me with Scripture that proves this instead of these evasive soundbites? What qualifies this group, who are manifestly too righteous to be included among the wicked and be destroyed but equally too wicked to be included among the righteous and be glorified, to escape the wrath of God?
Click to expand...
Revelation gives to us large numbers of people will be killed during Great Tribulation, but not all shall be killed off, as the Lord Jesus shall rule over those who remained until His Coming again.
 
sovereigngrace said:
I was actually addressing that question to Jacob.

I was asking you what sins and tresspasses are removed through your ceremonial sacrifices?

Jacob doesn't believe in them - you (and most Premils) do.
Click to expand...
The memorials are remembering death of Jesus and His resurrection, not in any fashion effectual saving Grace, as all of that comes from Calvary.
 
sovereigngrace said:
Who are all the wicked mortals who populate the future Premil millennium and give allegiance to Satan at the end? Basically: where do they come from and what qualifies them to escape the wrath of God that accompanies His return?
Click to expand...

I don't know. I don't lose too much sleep over it. I'm more interested in being able to resist Antichrist in the near future. In any case, as I've made clear a half dozen times in this thread, I am not a pure premillennialist.
 
Dachaser said:
The memorials are remembering death of Jesus and His resurrection, not in any fashion effectual saving Grace, as all of that comes from Calvary.
Click to expand...

But where does it teach this in the Bible? It doesn't matter what the Premil books say, where does thee Book teach that? Could you show me actual Scripture that proves animal sacrifices will be re-introduced as memorial sacrifices on the new earth?
 
Last edited:
Dachaser said:
Revelation gives to us large numbers of people will be killed during Great Tribulation, but not all shall be killed off, as the Lord Jesus shall rule over those who remained until His Coming again.
Click to expand...

I think you need to read Revelation 19 again. No one survives! Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Jesus smites who?

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This passage powerfully reveals the extent of the destruction that occurs when Jesus comes. No one survives!
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top