Tight jeans

[Ex Nihilo]

Headcovering IS mentioned...apples and oranges, Evie. Whole different discussion.

I will say that the idea of "dressing up" or even "dress in your best" is a cultural one. Unfortunately, the cultural can leave out portions of society.

Tracy, what do you say to the one who owns no "best" (not even highwaters)? They own what they own. And yes, I have known people like that.

Well, I agree. I guess the only connecting point is that modesty matters. I just didn't think it would be right to say that it doesn't matter at all what you wear!

Edit: Actually, I think this was my line of thought. With the headcovering requirement, is there an underlying principle (without getting into the cultural application of the coverings themselves) that we should dress in a manner that shows respect to other people in the congregation, particularly those to whom honor is due?

Edit 2: But we don't need to analogize to headcoverings, since the principle of showing honor to others is clear elsewhere in scripture. It is easier to infer a preference for respectful dress from this principle than to derive it from directions about headcoverings, which have a very specific purpose.

So, I'm finished arguing with myself for the moment.

 

[Augusta]

Headcovering IS mentioned...apples and oranges, Evie. Whole different discussion.

I will say that the idea of "dressing up" or even "dress in your best" is a cultural one. Unfortunately, the cultural can leave out portions of society.

Tracy, what do you say to the one who owns no "best" (not even highwaters)? They own what they own. And yes, I have known people like that.

I would say that they pick out what is the nicest out of all of it and that God would be honored by that. I also believe that once we have a heart change about something of this sort that he would make a way. You just might have some clothes dropped in your lap. We sometimes get garbage bags full of clothes from family or even friends of friends that have all sorts of goodies in them. Some people will not take hand me downs, I am not one of those people.

We also have at our church what we call a share n' swap. Everyone brings their used items of clothing and household goods. It is like a garage sale but no money changes hands you are getting rid of what you don't want/need and everyone comes and takes what they do want/need. I have gotten some really nice clothing and household goods that way. I would encourage all churches to organize these types of events because it is very helpful for all families. It's a great way to share you things and support one another. I have seen many of Nathan's dressy clothes show up on Sunday not on him.

 

[LadyFlynt]

I do agree with the showing of honour in such a way. What bothers me is the presumption that can be made upon a person when they show up wearing something that isn't as nice as one thinks should be worn, kwim? I have known people that are a weaker brother/sister and really want to attend services, but are too embarrassed to do so, because this is how they've been taught as well.

 

[Ex Nihilo]

I do agree with the showing of honour in such a way. What bothers me is the presumption that can be made upon a person when they show up wearing something that isn't as nice as one thinks should be worn, kwim? I have known people that are a weaker brother/sister and really want to attend services, but are too embarrassed to do so, because this is how they've been taught as well.

Yes, that is exactly what bothers me, too.

 

[kvanlaan]

I tried doing that already, Fred, but the only thing I received back from them by way of reply was this.

Now that's a scary bit of nonsense.

What bothers me is the presumption that can be made upon a person when they show up wearing something that isn't as nice as one thinks should be worn, kwim?

Bugs me too - a nasty bit of proto-legalism. But I've not seen this as an issue - and it was me on the "inappropriate dress" end of things. When we first got back to Canada in September, we were visiting an FRC which some here may consider quite pietistic/legalistic - even many 8 year old boys wear suits and ties. And I had none of that; our container wouldn't show up for another six weeks. I actually apologized to a hat-and-dress-clad woman and her suit-bedecked husband. They brushed it off and told me they were just glad to have me there - and they meant it. My likewise casually dressed son was, I am sure, the first black man to sit among them - but we were welcomed. As far as the clothes go, I find you rise to the demands put upon you or sink to the lowest denominator. (I don't mean that to sound harsh, but when a young woman dresses like a tart and there is no visit to her father by an elder, the church has just condoned that behaviour. And asked for more of the same.)

I (unconsciously to some extent) dress rather casually for worship at my father's church but feel quite underdressed (and this not because of 'looks' from others or any such thing) at the other. I think much of it has to do with how the worship services approach God; it then merely extends to dress and behaviour. One is EP, one is Reformed 'lite'. At one, suit and tie is the rule, at the other, tight and trendy clothes are the rule among the younger set. One is perhaps too conservative, while the other is too much 'well, God doesn't care, He just wants me here'.

I'd rather err on the side of caution, so long as it does not become an idol.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Though there is still a difference between casual and tart. I've dress in a denim skirt (long) and polo top and have considered that casual, but still different than a girl with low rise jeans, high waist/low cut top, and undies showing as she takes her seat.

 

[fredtgreco]

Adam,

Print out a copy of it now, and send it on to By Faith.

Sincerely,

I tried doing that already, Fred, but the only thing I received back from them by way of reply was this.

Adam,

Are you sure that's what it was? After all, By Faith has an "art gallery in a church" article in every issue. It could have been any one of a dozen or so such articles.

 

[he beholds]

Though there is still a difference between casual and tart. I've dress in a denim skirt (long) and polo top and have considered that casual, but still different than a girl with low rise jeans, high waist/low cut top, and undies showing as she takes her seat.

I totally agree!

No one here is arguing that people should dress immodestly. I do not think that if people do not wear ties and suits, they must be of Reformed-lite church. I really, really think dress is based on the style of the people, not their view of God or worship. Of course, an elderly congregation will be more dressed up. Even a non-Christian old lady will dress up for church.

 

[Rocketeer]

If we take the idea that our worship attire (in itself, and not the heart it reflects) is meant to show respect to God, I fear we are moving in that direction.

Right. Let me rephrase. It is a bit like good works. The good works themselves do not justify or sanctify you in any way. On the other hand, if there is totally no distinction between you and a worldling, James tells you (2:17, ESV): "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

The same goes for reverence in church. Really, clothes are not all that important. I'd much rather see someone dressed like a member of a motor gang and attentive, than someone in a suit babbling throughout the service. However, how can you say you consider it to be a great privilege to come to what is a house of God, if you look like you just worked your garden?

(P.S.: you Americans and we Western Europeans, if there is anyone in your/our churches who cannot afford a good set of clothes and nobody helps, shame on you/us for calling yourselves/ourselves Christians, and failing to share of your/our goods with your/our brothers and sisters.)

 

[LadyFlynt]

(P.S.: you Americans and we Western Europeans, if there is anyone in your/our churches who cannot afford a good set of clothes and nobody helps, shame on you/us for calling yourselves/ourselves Christians, and failing to share of your/our goods with your/our brothers and sisters.)

Even this must be done with trepidation, for the possibilities of offending someone (though we must also teach that one should swallow their pride when another is trying to bless them). It's a balancing act.

 

[Augusta]

I do agree with the showing of honour in such a way. What bothers me is the presumption that can be made upon a person when they show up wearing something that isn't as nice as one thinks should be worn, kwim? I have known people that are a weaker brother/sister and really want to attend services, but are too embarrassed to do so, because this is how they've been taught as well.

I agree with you and God has made an unambiguous command that they not do that.

James 2
1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;

3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

 

[raekwon]

If we take the idea that our worship attire (in itself, and not the heart it reflects) is meant to show respect to God, I fear we are moving in that direction.

Right. Let me rephrase. It is a bit like good works. The good works themselves do not justify or sanctify you in any way. On the other hand, if there is totally no distinction between you and a worldling, James tells you (2:17, ESV): "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

The same goes for reverence in church. Really, clothes are not all that important. I'd much rather see someone dressed like a member of a motor gang and attentive, than someone in a suit babbling throughout the service. However, how can you say you consider it to be a great privilege to come to what is a house of God, if you look like you just worked your garden?

(P.S.: you Americans and we Western Europeans, if there is anyone in your/our churches who cannot afford a good set of clothes and nobody helps, shame on you/us for calling yourselves/ourselves Christians, and failing to share of your/our goods with your/our brothers and sisters.)

False dichotomy. "Worldlings" wear "nice" clothes to church (and other places), too.

Also, I've never seen anyone come to church looking like they'd just worked their garden. I HAVE, however, seen someone come to church looking like he was in the middle of his evening run (mainly because he was in the middle of his evening run).

 

[larryjf]

(P.S.: you Americans and we Western Europeans, if there is anyone in your/our churches who cannot afford a good set of clothes and nobody helps, shame on you/us for calling yourselves/ourselves Christians, and failing to share of your/our goods with your/our brothers and sisters.)

First, i hope it's not only Western Europeans and Americans who are helping to clothe those who need clothing.
Second, when we help folks out with clothing we are much more concerned with getting them something that they can wear more than once/week. In the winter we are quite concerned that it be warm clothing that they get...style is rarely ever an issue.

 

[Rocketeer]

False dichotomy. "Worldlings" wear "nice" clothes to church (and other places), too.

False analysis. I did not use the word 'nice' in either of my posts. Clothes for church need not be nice, as I tried to make clear in my first post. I'll state that they need to be modest, decent and sober, as part of the bigger picture/attitude.

Also, I've never seen anyone come to church looking like they'd just worked their garden.

There was a fashion here a few years ago to wear clothes which where first torn up and then patched; I was referring to that.

I HAVE, however, seen someone come to church looking like he was in the middle of his evening run (mainly because he was in the middle of his evening run).

Fine, evening run it is. Nor would I like to see ball dress in church, for that matter.

(P.S.: you Americans and we Western Europeans, if there is anyone in your/our churches who cannot afford a good set of clothes and nobody helps, shame on you/us for calling yourselves/ourselves Christians, and failing to share of your/our goods with your/our brothers and sisters.)

First, I hope it's not only Western Europeans and Americans who are helping to clothe those who need clothing.
Second, when we help folks out with clothing we are much more concerned with getting them something that they can wear more than once/week. In the winter we are quite concerned that it be warm clothing that they get...style is rarely ever an issue.

Precisely. If you'll reread what you quoted me saying, you'll see that I did not see 'stylish' clothes; I said good clothes. With that I mean 'good' clothes: clothes that the recipient can wear.

As to your first, yes, but I am myself a Western European from a rather rich country, and as I have never experienced nor directly witnessed poverty, I thought not fit to comment on the behavior of those in situations I cannot relate to.

 

[larryjf]

As to your first, yes, but I am myself a Western European from a rather rich country, and as I have never experienced nor directly witnessed poverty, I thought not fit to comment on the behavior of those in situations I cannot relate to.

I am also from a well-off country (financially), but i feel very fit to comment on behavior in other situations if those behaviors are biblical in nature (Mat 25)

 

[Rocketeer]

I am also from a well-off country (financially), but i feel very fit to comment on behavior in other situations if those behaviors are biblical in nature (Mat 25)

Yes, I know. The difference is that America is very heavily divided in terms of rich and poor. Over here, ever pervasive socialism in the form of state welfare programs and income leveling have reduced the number of people that cannot pay for a good set of clothes to such low levels, that the number of Dutch beggars I recall having seen is four. The number of families I know that are in such trouble as to need my or someone else's help is zero.

It's easy to preach what you cannot practice, and that is why I, personally, am slow to condemn the (overwhelmingly absent) non-Westerners.

 

[larryjf]

I am also from a well-off country (financially), but i feel very fit to comment on behavior in other situations if those behaviors are biblical in nature (Mat 25)

Yes, I know. The difference is that America is very heavily divided in terms of rich and poor. Over here, ever pervasive socialism in the form of state welfare programs and income leveling have reduced the number of people that cannot pay for a good set of clothes to such low levels, that the number of Dutch beggars I recall having seen is four. The number of families I know that are in such trouble as to need my or someone else's help is zero.

It's easy to preach what you cannot practice, and that is why I, personally, am slow to condemn the (overwhelmingly absent) non-Westerners.

If we only preach what we are able to practice we would most likely have to stay away from preaching a good portion of the Bible...scary thought.

 

[Rocketeer]

If we only preach what we are able to practice we would most likely have to stay away from preaching a good portion of the Bible...scary thought.

1. I have not discerned anyone on the board specifically lacking in this aspect.
2. I only said that to prevent the 'they cannot pay for good clothes comeback'.
3. I have no experience on the subject,
4. And therefore, I thought fit not to lecture on it.
5. This is just like not starting a rant against homosexuals, for the same reasons.
6. However, when directly confronted with such behavior, I would have to do something or sin myself, and
7. This is my last reply to this -ness; any further comments of yours will carry your point, whatever it may be.

 

[jogri17]

I personally wear a suit shirt with kakkys or jeans, a belt, dress shoes, and sometimes a tie or not. I dress nicer but I do not think a suit is necessary. Also depending on where you live dressing up is just impratical. IF you live in.... oh lets say Québec City where you an ungodly amount of snow you will dress warm at all costs even if u look bad. Going to church in -32 degrees weather makes you think God would prefer u not have frost bite and physically ok than wear formal clothes. Also what is formal changes from culture to culture. Also what about people who wear suits and such for work? I would think not wearing it would be the best way for them to keep the sabbath. Those are my thoughts.

 

[Pilgrim's Progeny]

Basically, don't wear tight jeans, that's a no-brainer. Wear that which is becoming of a child of God, that which will change as you move from glory to glory.

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

Tight jeans are bad for a man's sperm count as well as they hug his personal bits too close to his body heat.

 

[Dan "a" man]

If you are a man just make sure you wear pants.
YouTube - Jesus wore pants, not a dress!!! Baptist preaching Bible

This is frankly the scary teaching that is getting all of us labeled as crazy by those we are trying to reach.

Modesty is key, but this is insanity. How can he say that Christ wore pants in the sense that we do? That is ridiculous. This man is ridiculous.

 

[Pilgrim's Progeny]

Tight jeans are bad for a man's sperm count as well as they hug his personal bits too close to his body heat.

We spent 1 1/2 years unable to concieve children, then I went to boxers and loose jeans, now we have four children, case closed.

 

[satz]

which will change as you move from glory to glory.

Paul,

What do you mean by this?

-----Added 1/20/2009 at 02:45:12 EST-----

We spent 1 1/2 years unable to concieve children, then I went to boxers and loose jeans, now we have four children, case closed.

 

[Pilgrim's Progeny]

which will change as you move from glory to glory.

Paul,

What do you mean by this?

-----Added 1/20/2009 at 02:45:12 EST-----

We spent 1 1/2 years unable to concieve children, then I went to boxers and loose jeans, now we have four children, case closed.

The latter was just a roo-hah to Libertine's comment.

As to the former, I believe that modesty takes on an ever-changing form as we grow from glory to glory. Example, two years ago my wife wore tight pants, her pants were limited as to what she could fit herself into, tight or not. Then, she moved to skirts, she believed that no man, but me, should be allowed to see the contour of her legs, save medical personnel. Then this moved to her hair, she believed that no man should see the beauty of her hair but me. It also became about worship as well, in the assembly of the people of God there should be no distraction. It was not for men to see the contour of her thighs or buttocks, or the glory of her hair, they must needs be confronted with the glory of God, albeit that her figure is the glory of God reserved for her husband. I think you get the point.

 

[satz]

Thanks.

 

[Timothy William]

I'm wondering... if left to their own desires, what would a typical 20-year-old hipster wear to do something important like... let's say - meet the president. My guess is that they would want to dress much nicer than they do at any other time.

My problem with a lot of the hipster types wear, is not that they dress differently from me (a conservative middle-class suburbanite), but that they don't dress any differently than they do any other day of the week. Many times they look like they accidentally wound up in Church and we should be happy that they have any clothes on at all.

As a conservative middle class suburbanite, how I dress for church is exactly the same as I dress any other day of the week. I wear leather shoes, a shirt and jacket (though not a tie) to go shopping. Should I wear black tie (or even white tie?) to church each week because otherwise I will be wearing the same thing that that I wear the other 6 days? If not, why should I expect the 20-year-old-hipster to wear a suit and tie?

When I was 10 I had the honour of meeting Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, along with several others from my school. Some of us even got to speak to her (not me though). We wore our normal school uniform, which, this being a government primary school, was basically long sleeved casual clothes, no collar, jacket or tie. Her Majesty didn't seem to mind. Oddly enough, I would have been far more formally dressed had I worn the school uniform of the Anglican school I attended from age 5-7, which included a collar and tie, blazar and a cap.

Seeing children in overly conservative grown up clothing actually worries me sometimes - is it so that the children show respect, or is it to try to make the children look like adults? There's nothing wrong with children dressing as children, or 19 year olds dressing like 19 year olds, and we shouldn't automatically equate showing respect in church with dressing like an upper middle class 45 year old worldling. I've even heard parents say "other people's kids can wear jeans to church, but no child of mine is going dressed like that" (to a well dressed 12 year old in good jeans and a polo shirt). Are you dressing your kids up to show respect to God, or to show off to the other parents that you are a Good Parent who has nice, well dressed children?

 

[Joseph Ringling]

This thread really strikes a nerve with me and I'll tell you why. I grew up gowing to a charismatic/pentecostal church in the inner city. Lot's of poor folks. We had a homeless ministry where they would come and we would feed them and minister to them every Sunday. The pastor did wear a suit and tie but mostly everyone wore casual clothes and yes the women were modest.

Years later I became convinced of the truth of Calvinism and became a member of a Reformed Baptist church. Again, my pastor wore a suit and tie but almost all of the congregation dressed casual and comfortable and of course modest. I would say that they were the most genuine loving people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing and worshipping with.

A few years ago I had to move away for my work. I began to look for another church, a Reformed church. I found that my little church in Ohio was a one of a kind. The church I began to attend "looked" perfect. All the men wore suits, the women dressed modest and clean and all the children sat up straight and rarely ever made a peep, even the littlest ones that were old enought to sit in with the adults. (Ages 4 and up I believe)

I continued to attend this church because it was the only reformed baptist church in the area. I began to notice that despite this perfect apperance most of the people were unfriendly and the church was very clique-ish. In retrospect it seemed, at least to me as a new attender that if you didn't fit in with there dress and the way they acted then you were not going to fit in.

So to make a long story short, was God more glorified in churches A and B, or was He more so in Church C because the dress was impeccable, as were the manners, and the Hymns were beautiful?

What I guess I'm saying is, does it really matter how we look if we don't have love for one another?

 

[Abd_Yesua_alMasih]

I suppose that is another risk. Dressing up can put people off when otherwise they would fit in perfectly. I am referring to guests that are less well off or simply from a different social background.

During the week I will dress sloppy as a student but then spend the other half of my time in a suit at cocktail parties and networking events with CEOs and business leaders, or at meetings with government or community leaders. When I go to church on Sundays I actually dress neither like a student, nor like a stuck-up rich kid. I dress tidy, but not to tidy. Maybe it is where I come from but dressing up is seen as arrogance. It can really put people off.

 

[moral necessity]

Just a general comment regarding our dress before God:

It seems as if our natural tendency is to honor God in the way that we show honor to others. Better dress for higher up people. And so, for God, we're at a loss to find any attire that is properly suitable for him. Our goal should be to honor him in all of our ways. But, with our clothes, even our best is never enough for the Father. God is honored only with us being clothed with Christ before him. Finding honor in anything else when in his presence necessarily removes a fraction of that honor that is due to Christ, and therefore, in my opinion, dishonors Christ in that degree.

Personally, I tend to wear nice clothes to church, those that fall in line with the community that I live in, so as not to offend anyone who might stumble thereby, and mainly because I enjoy them. But, in my mind, as I receive from the Lord on Sundays, the clothes of Christ are all I try to worry about as being seen as honorable enough for him.

Blessings!