Tight jeans

[greenbaggins]

African tribal wear would be extremely distracting in the deep South.

Had to laugh when I read this. While we don't live in the deep South (Kentucky), we have a couple from Ghana who usually dress in beautiful tribal wear. My husband pastors a small, elderly congregation, and yet it does not seem out of place.

You know. I thought a similar thing. We often had people from Africa attend our worship services growing up who wore traditional clothing. It never seemed out of place. I think this goes to the issue of the heart of the wearer.

You're absolutely right on this. It seems that many churches have an expanding idea of other cultures. This means that Americans are gradually coming to realize that they should not require Africans to dress like Americans.

 

[raekwon]

Had to laugh when I read this. While we don't live in the deep South (Kentucky), we have a couple from Ghana who usually dress in beautiful tribal wear. My husband pastors a small, elderly congregation, and yet it does not seem out of place.

You know. I thought a similar thing. We often had people from Africa attend our worship services growing up who wore traditional clothing. It never seemed out of place. I think this goes to the issue of the heart of the wearer.

You're absolutely right on this. It seems that many churches have an expanding idea of other cultures. This means that Americans are gradually coming to realize that they should not require Africans to dress like Americans.

:yes:

And by that same token, it could (and should) be said that "conservative middle-class suburbanites should not require 20-year-old hipsters to dress like conservative middle-class suburbanites."

(Those blanks can be filled in a myriad of ways.)

 

[LawrenceU]

BTW, that was in the 1970's and 1980's. I'm not as young as my stunning avatar photograph may lead one to believe.

 

[he beholds]

And by that same token, it could (and should) be said that "conservative middle-class suburbanites should not require 20-year-old hipsters to dress like conservative middle-class suburbanites."

Well said! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

 

[Seb]

You know. I thought a similar thing. We often had people from Africa attend our worship services growing up who wore traditional clothing. It never seemed out of place. I think this goes to the issue of the heart of the wearer.

You're absolutely right on this. It seems that many churches have an expanding idea of other cultures. This means that Americans are gradually coming to realize that they should not require Africans to dress like Americans.

:yes:

And by that same token, it could (and should) be said that "conservative middle-class suburbanites should not require 20-year-old hipsters to dress like conservative middle-class suburbanites."

(Those blanks can be filled in a myriad of ways.)

I'm wondering... if left to their own desires, what would a typical 20-year-old hipster wear to do something important like... let's say - meet the president. My guess is that they would want to dress much nicer than they do at any other time.

My problem with a lot of the hipster types wear, is not that they dress differently from me (a conservative middle-class suburbanite), but that they don't dress any differently than they do any other day of the week. Many times they look like they accidentally wound up in Church and we should be happy that they have any clothes on at all.

 

[Hawaiian Puritan]

African tribal wear would be extremely distracting in the deep South.

Had to laugh when I read this. While we don't live in the deep South (Kentucky), we have a couple from Ghana who usually dress in beautiful tribal wear. My husband pastors a small, elderly congregation, and yet it does not seem out of place.

We also had a woman from Africa who would dress in her traditional wear on Sundays, including the beautiful colorful skirt and headdress that you see women wearing in Africa. She often served as an usher or collector of the offering, and you wouldn't believe how she brightened up the faces of many people in the church. It was great.

 

[he beholds]

You're absolutely right on this. It seems that many churches have an expanding idea of other cultures. This means that Americans are gradually coming to realize that they should not require Africans to dress like Americans.

:yes:

And by that same token, it could (and should) be said that "conservative middle-class suburbanites should not require 20-year-old hipsters to dress like conservative middle-class suburbanites."

(Those blanks can be filled in a myriad of ways.)

I'm wondering... if left to their own desires, what would a typical 20-year-old hipster wear to do something important like... let's say - meet the president. My guess is that they would want to dress much nicer than they do at any other time.

My problem with a lot of the hipster types wear, is not that they dress differently from me (a conservative middle-class suburbanite), but that they don't dress any differently than they do any other day of the week. Many times they look like they accidentally wound up in Church and we should be happy that they have any clothes on at all.

Do we know that we are, in fact, supposed to dress differently on the Lord's Day than any other day? Is it recorded that the apostles dressed differently then?
My husband is a teacher, so he wears ties or suit coats, etc, Monday through Friday. It's not a problem for my husband to "dress up," on the Lord's Day, but he still looks no different than he does any other day of the week. Is that really the issue? Should he wear a tuxedo, then, to set apart his church clothes from his everyday clothes?

 

[raekwon]

You're absolutely right on this. It seems that many churches have an expanding idea of other cultures. This means that Americans are gradually coming to realize that they should not require Africans to dress like Americans.

:yes:

And by that same token, it could (and should) be said that "conservative middle-class suburbanites should not require 20-year-old hipsters to dress like conservative middle-class suburbanites."

(Those blanks can be filled in a myriad of ways.)

I'm wondering... if left to their own desires, what would a typical 20-year-old hipster wear to do something important like... let's say - meet the president. My guess is that they would want to dress much nicer than they do at any other time.

Possibly, but "much nicer" in that case would probably look different than it would for you or for me.

Either way, though, the President argument doesn't quite scale, since the President is not my Father.

Trust me, folks, I'm not arguing for people coming to church in rags. I'm just saying that it's unrealistic and frankly unbiblical to (either explicitly or implicitly) create a dress requirement above and beyond modesty for worship.

 

[Ex Nihilo]

I'm wondering... if left to their own desires, what would a typical 20-year-old hipster wear to do something important like... let's say - meet the president. My guess is that they would want to dress much nicer than they do at any other time.

Which does not prove that these 20-year-olds respect the President more than they do God, but merely that social expectations for these kinds of events are strong, and most people conform. I'm not sure that's a great argument for instituting similar expectations for church. The world assumes that outward appearance is important, and I'm not saying that we shouldn't dress nicely for worship. But an argument based on expectations for business or political events is not very persuasive to me. I care more for my parents than I do for a potential employer, but that isn't an argument for why I should wear a business suit every time I see them. I understand that some people feel like wearing jeans to church is disrespectful or not taking the service seriously, but you have to remember that this attire looks very different to students who wear jeans and t-shirts every day. Wearing nice jeans and a sweater is "dressing up."

Another concern for students is the difficulty of building a wardrobe of "church attire." Personally, I have business suits, nice jeans, and formal attire, but not that much that is exactly right for church -- and it's expensive to buy a whole extra set of outfits! I usually wear one of my two business casual outfits. But notably, when I'm working, this is dressing down from my weekday business attire. Is that wrong? I really don't think so. I just don't see any biblical indication that Sunday attire should be different.

 

[Seb]

:yes:

And by that same token, it could (and should) be said that "conservative middle-class suburbanites should not require 20-year-old hipsters to dress like conservative middle-class suburbanites."

(Those blanks can be filled in a myriad of ways.)

I'm wondering... if left to their own desires, what would a typical 20-year-old hipster wear to do something important like... let's say - meet the president. My guess is that they would want to dress much nicer than they do at any other time.

My problem with a lot of the hipster types wear, is not that they dress differently from me (a conservative middle-class suburbanite), but that they don't dress any differently than they do any other day of the week. Many times they look like they accidentally wound up in Church and we should be happy that they have any clothes on at all.

Do we know that we are, in fact, supposed to dress differently on the Lord's Day than any other day? Is it recorded that the apostles dressed differently then?
My husband is a teacher, so he wears ties or suit coats, etc, Monday through Friday. It's not a problem for my husband to "dress up," on the Lord's Day, but he still looks no different than he does any other day of the week. Is that really the issue? Should he wear a tuxedo, then, to set apart his church clothes from his everyday clothes?

Of course not.

So we should all wear shorts and flip-flops if that's what we wear all the other days of the week, even if we own nicer clothes to do something special like go out on a date in?

That's what I see and what I'm talking about.

It's more a matter of respect for where you are and what you're doing.

Doesn't what you wear (especially nowadays in this country) reflect something about you and your attitude? That's all I'm saying.

 

[Kim G]

I'm wondering... if left to their own desires, what would a typical 20-year-old hipster wear to do something important like... let's say - meet the president. My guess is that they would want to dress much nicer than they do at any other time.

Actually, do you remember the big "scandal" in 2005 when a woman's sports team got to tour the White House and meet President Bush? The women wore skirts (a couple miniskirts, even), sleeveless tees, and flip-flops (their nice $18 ones!). They considered that what they were wearing was comfortable for the tour but dressy enough to meet the President.

People were shocked because that wasn't how things were done at the White House. But . . . yeah, it is how things are done these days. Maybe the older generation needs to compromise a little bit with the younger generation.

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Doesn't what you wear (especially nowadays in this country) reflect something about you and your attitude? That's all I'm saying.

It very well might, and if someone wears shorts and flip-flops because they really do not take the service seriously, that's obviously wrong. But I'm concerned that people might make incorrect assumptions about others' motivations based on their dress. I'm also concerned (because I've known friends who felt this way) that students and lower-income people may be uncomfortable at a church where everyone is expensively dressed. It would be an error to approach worship with a casual attitude, but to approach worship as a fashion show or a time to show off your wealth is at least as bad (and blatantly unscriptural!) and just as real of a problem.

 

[Seb]

You know, there is a lot of middle ground between the two extremes of shorts with flip-flops and the tuxedo.

 

[Archlute]

I'm wondering... if left to their own desires, what would a typical 20-year-old hipster wear to do something important like... let's say - meet the president. My guess is that they would want to dress much nicer than they do at any other time.

Actually, do you remember the big "scandal" in 2005 when a woman's sports team got to tour the White House and meet President Bush? The women wore skirts (a couple miniskirts, even), sleeveless tees, and flip-flops (their nice $18 ones!). They considered that what they were wearing was comfortable for the tour but dressy enough to meet the President.

People were shocked because that wasn't how things were done at the White House. But . . . yeah, it is how things are done these days. Maybe the older generation needs to compromise a little bit with the younger generation.

Or it is possible to read this as an indication of how little our society cares about structures of authority, issues of propriety, and thinking of others above their own comfort and preferences....

We might even want to assert that the younger generation should submit a little bit to the wisdom of the older generation.

I am a relatively young fellow, but I believe that having married young, experience military service young, and had a family at a rather youthful age God has blessed me with some maturity and perspective that is sorely lacking among the majority of my generation; those who reject military (or other) structures and discipline, those who put off marriage for self-centered goals, and those who put off having kids (or still refuse to have them) for reasons of self-satisfaction.

If your life focuses around yourself (a sin from which we all suffer, but one which seems to particularly afflict the soul patch crowd) then you will likely be offended if anyone suggest that your dress be modified for any reason.

-----Added 1/14/2009 at 03:10:12 EST-----

Although not directly related to the issue of clothing in church, I believe that this article, penned by the ever relevant Carl Trueman, gives some great perspective on issues that affect the thoughts of those in our churches on matters related to culture and the West.

Read it, but be careful not to spill your latte on your laptop when you start laughing.

 

[Seb]

This is off topic but I'm curious, how many married women would have been okay with their groom showing up for a church wedding in common everyday street clothes if they had something better in their closet?

 

[fredtgreco]

Adam,

Print out a copy of it now, and send it on to By Faith.

Sincerely,

 

[LadyFlynt]

This is off topic but I'm curious, how many married women would have been okay with their groom showing up for a church wedding in common everyday street clothes if they had something better in their closet?

How many of us now think that we should go back to the puritan belief of a plain and simple wedding?


Some of this does remind me of the time when farmers came as they were...for farming doesn't take a "day off". And yes, my husband has had to chase cows down when we were supposed to be heading for church. He and his boss barely made into church at all (though they did toss on clean clothes and washed their hands, they still smelled like the field and cattle).

 

[LawrenceU]

This is off topic but I'm curious, how many married women would have been okay with their groom showing up for a church wedding in common everyday street clothes if they had something better in their closet?

How many of us now think that we should go back to the puritan belief of a plain and simple wedding?

But, I like it.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Yes, I was being ornery with that...but serious also. Think of the money that is wasted, the pomp and circumstance, etc.

 

[Notthemama1984]

You're absolutely right on this. It seems that many churches have an expanding idea of other cultures. This means that Americans are gradually coming to realize that they should not require Africans to dress like Americans.

:yes:

And by that same token, it could (and should) be said that "conservative middle-class suburbanites should not require 20-year-old hipsters to dress like conservative middle-class suburbanites."

(Those blanks can be filled in a myriad of ways.)

I'm wondering... if left to their own desires, what would a typical 20-year-old hipster wear to do something important like... let's say - meet the president. My guess is that they would want to dress much nicer than they do at any other time.

My problem with a lot of the hipster types wear, is not that they dress differently from me (a conservative middle-class suburbanite), but that they don't dress any differently than they do any other day of the week. Many times they look like they accidentally wound up in Church and we should be happy that they have any clothes on at all.

A hipster's "nice" clothes to see the President could still easily be baggy saggy jeans, t-shirt, ball cap, and some bling. They just wear the nice ones and not the one with holes.

 

[Scott1]

This is difficult because if we do not focus on biblical principles we can get diverted into subjective thoughts, tastes and opinions and divide ourselves on pretenses. On top of that, it is difficult to describe one's clothing and adornment as it constantly changes!

A few biblical principles (that may be difficult to accept) do apply:

God is generous. God is good. God created variety. God created clothing for many purposes including hiding the shame of our nakedness, protecting us from the elements, and enjoying the abundance of his provision.

1) Modesty is a broad concept biblically, but in some contexts is addressed specifically at the way women dress. I Timothy 2:9-10, I Peter 3:2-9

2) Causing others to stumble has to be considered in the whole of the Christian life I Cor 8:11,12 I Thessalonians 5:14

3) We are commanded to avoid even the appearance of evil (cf I Thess 5:22)

4) Enticing, promoting or causing sexual immorality is particularly addressed as sin in thought, word and deed. We do not operate in a vacuum, we have some responsibility to others not provoking their harm Acts 15:29 I Corinthians 6:13

There is no doubt that by God's standard our pop culture is giving itself over to immorality, disrespect and self-centeredness. Somehow, we must, by God's grace be different.

 

[Archlute]

Adam,

Print out a copy of it now, and send it on to By Faith.

Sincerely,

I tried doing that already, Fred, but the only thing I received back from them by way of reply was this.

 

[Rocketeer]

The world assumes that outward appearance is important, and I'm not saying that we shouldn't dress nicely for worship. But an argument based on expectations for business or political events is not very persuasive to me. I care more for my parents than I do for a potential employer, but that isn't an argument for why I should wear a business suit every time I see them.

Evie, you are raising a legitimate point to which I would like to respond. Let's think of our Heavenly Father. We should love him, but that is not all. He is not our Father in the earthly sense of the word. No - He is the source of life itself, He is the One Who sustains our life and the One to Whom all of our energies and gifts and talents and property and time and thoughts and feelings rightly belong, He is the One Who is infinitely wise, great, intelligent, holy, loving, longsuffering, yes, He is omnipresent, omnipowerful and omniscient - for starters. Can there be some distance, no can there be some fear here? Fear of the Lord? Awe of His insuperable, insurmountable greatness?

I understand you care for your parents more than for your potential employer. I do, too. I would also add that one should care more for God than for one's parents, and that one should be more awed to come before His Face, than before one's employer, and that one should have more respect for His presence than one would have for a President or King or Queen - our beloved Queen Beatrix has a national approval rating of 92%; even kids dress up in tuxedo's when they wish her a happy birthday. I suggest we have more respect, awe and love for God than for any combination of earthly parents, employers or Queens.

That is for the theory. How this is translated into practice is a good question. Of course, food is more important than dressing well for church. Not arguing the notion, my good sirs and dames. But on the other hand, modesty really is the tip of the iceberg. It is the logical place to start, coupled with behaving reverently and carrying yourself as such, and followed by an effort to look as if you consider being in church one of the greatest privileges on this world (which it is), both in behavior, carriage, and dress. In other words, make an effort to be on your best, the most reverent, holy, modest and sanctifying you can make yourself to look, and make sure it is not a deception but act that way too.

A rather lengthy of mine.

Edit:

From the tuxedo kid argument do not think I am trying to push tuxedos on everyone. I think one can look absolutely holy in an overall. Really. On the other hand, if you can afford something more fitting, why would you go in an overall?

 

[Annalissa]

My

Regarding modesty of dress in worship services, I think there are 2 issues here...1)Sexually immodest clothes worn by Christian women/girls and 2) the kind of clothing that should be worn by all to church (i.e. ye olde "jeans vs. suits 'n' ties"/"casual vs. dressy" debate).

As a single woman, I agree to a certain extent with the idea that we should all do our utmost to please God and not man regarding "el churchwear." I've seen young women in my church as well as others fail miserably in the modesty dept. at times. (including myself in the past...) On rare occasions it is done out of complete naiveté , however- on consecutive occasions (in my opinion) this means there is a blatant need for the older women in the church to instruct the younger, big time.

If immodesty is a flagrant and continuing occurrence in anyone's church and they are a member, sounds like the pastor and elders may need to get involved with a gentle exhoration through their wives. Maybe some of the elders' wives can incorporate instruction into regular meetings for the women? This occurred at our church around two years ago and since the ladies of our congregation meet monthly, a sort of "seminar" was held and the topic of immodesty was included in the instruction time (it also included more domestically "fun" stuff like creative cooking, how to's for knitting, being a good hostess, etc.) I found it to be informative and even eye-opening as to the effect women's dress can have on men in the church when they're just trying to obey God and worship Him on the Lord's Day.

It's tough in today's world to find clothes that fit well and don't show off every feature you're supposed to keep under wraps, but as King's daughters, we're called to protect our brothers in Christ...maybe we have to be more selective about what we buy and maybe we have to forego most if not, all of the trends of today...but it's a small cost to pay (if you can call it that) for ensuring more unity in the body. Think of all the women whose husbands struggle in worship because of "tartish" clothing worn (or think of your own husband...or your future guy)...makes you think a little more about buying clothes and what's currently in your wardrobe...

As for the exact type of clothing that should be worn, giving God our best, whether it's clean, cotton overalls, suit & tie or a decent dress or skirt, using our God-given common sense should be employed. If we're "rightly dividing" the Word, it shouldn't be a huge issue. I think this is where working out our own salvation with fear and trembling comes in, too. Others' opinions are sometimes simply that - others' opinions. I think it's a little too judgmental for us to set rigid standards of dress for worship, but we can obviously see where not saying anything can leave a huge margin for error.

I could go on, but I think I just jumped on a Haha.

 

[Augusta]

I can't respond to all of the comments because there are too many. First we would not have a modesty problem if we didn't have such a casual attitude when we approach God.

I think that at the root of all of this is egalitarianism that has been creeping into American culture over the last century. Authority structures are breaking down left and right. The story, which I do recall, that Kim mentioned about the girls meeting the President in casual attire is a prime example. Thank the Lord there was still a hue and cry and that shows that it's not all gone yet. As Rocketeer said, God is our Father but not in the same sense as an earthly Father and we are to fear him. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling before Him.

There is a principle of honor to your betters that stretches back for millennia in all civilized cultures, honor to the high officials and Kings and Queens. Each culture had what was nice dress and what was work/casual dress. It varied but the lines were there. Even the people of the NT era had nice and casual. Do you think they didn't?? What about weddings and special occasions? You know they did.

A word about the "it's too expensive" angle. God knows you he knows your situation, he knows what is the best you have. In old pictures of people going to Church or a wedding etc. you see them in their best coat, shirt, and pants. Many are careworn and the pants are high water because it is all they have but it is the best they have, and it is the attitude that causes them to patch it and press it and wear it because it is their best, that is God honoring. They wore it every time because it was THE (singular) nice outfit. Now, we think we have to be in the latest threads and many of them and if they are casual, well, thats what I am wearing because I am more concerned with looking right than with honoring God.

It is a heart issue AND and appearance issue. We are all witnesses for God. What we do is watched and observed. How we approach God is watched and observed. I don't think it's an accident that there is a casual attitude about God and his holiness that has infected modern day America. We don't approach him as we should with honor and fear and trembling.

There is a scriptural arguement to this. God is holy and to those who come near him he will be regarded as holy. Also the Malachi passage that Rtaron mentioned.

 

[he beholds]

I can't respond to all of the comments because there are too many. First we would not have a modesty problem if we didn't have such a casual attitude when we approach God.

I think that at the root of all of this is egalitarianism that has been creeping into American culture over the last century. Authority structures are breaking down left and right. The story, which I do recall, that Kim mentioned about the girls meeting the President in casual attire is a prime example. Thank the Lord there was still a hue and cry and that shows that it's not all gone yet. As Rocketeer said, God is our Father but not in the same sense as an earthly Father and we are to fear him. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling before Him.

As long as it is just egalitarianism, and not sin, that is influencing what one wears, so be it.

There is a principle of honor to your betters that stretches back for millennia in all civilized cultures, honor to the high officials and Kings and Queens. Each culture had what was nice dress and what was work/casual dress. It varied but the lines were there. Even the people of the NT era had nice and casual. Do you think they didn't?? What about weddings and special occasions? You know they did.

I don't KNOW they did.

A word about the "it's too expensive" angle. God knows you he knows your situation, he knows what is the best you have. In old pictures of people going to Church or a wedding etc. you see them in their best coat, shirt, and pants. Many are careworn and the pants are high water because it is all they have but it is the best they have, and it is the attitude that causes them to patch it and press it and wear it because it is their best, that is God honoring. They wore it every time because it was THE (singular) nice outfit. Now, we think we have to be in the latest threads and many of them and if they are casual, well, thats what I am wearing because I am more concerned with looking right than with honoring God.

I think on the converse, there are people who are more concerned than looking right than honoring God.
Beyond modesty, I cannot accept that there is a set standard for all believers! I mean, in my opinion, people who dress in very plain dresses aren't very dressed up at all. (Think Mennonites) However, could I ever accuse them of disrespecting God because they don't care to look fancy? NO!

It is a heart issue AND and appearance issue. We are all witnesses for God. What we do is watched and observed. How we approach God is watched and observed. I don't think it's an accident that there is a casual attitude about God and his holiness that has infected modern day America. We don't approach him as we should with honor and fear and trembling.

Yes, what we do is watched and observed. Hopefully we will not hold our brothers and sisters (and those unbelieving observers) to a standard that is unbiblical and extrabiblical.

There is a scriptural arguement to this. God is holy and to those who come near him he will be regarded as holy. Also the Malachi passage that Rtaron mentioned.

I regard God as holy, even in my pajamas.

 

[Ex Nihilo]

I understand you care for your parents more than for your potential employer. I do, too. I would also add that one should care more for God than for one's parents, and that one should be more awed to come before His Face, than before one's employer, and that one should have more respect for His presence than one would have for a President or King or Queen - our beloved Queen Beatrix has a national approval rating of 92%; even kids dress up in tuxedo's when they wish her a happy birthday. I suggest we have more respect, awe and love for God than for any combination of earthly parents, employers or Queens.

I totally agree; I'm just not sure where God has commanded us to show this respect and awe through our clothing. But I would agree that more often than not, a lack of care in dressing for worship does indicate a lack of respect and awe, and that is wrong. However, I think it's telling that the NT warns women at least against relying on fine clothes for their adornment. Meanwhile, the supposed problem of not dressing up for worship is never mentioned. The scriptural silence on clothing as a sign of respect to God suggests to me (and I may be very wrong) that the main concern with clothing is that it not distract other worshipers, either because it is too fine, too dirty, too immodest, or otherwise inappropriate when compared to the typical dress within that group. I am not too knowledgeable of the RPW, but I do think it is wrong to try to use clothing as a means of worship. If we take the idea that our worship attire (in itself, and not the heart it reflects) is meant to show respect to God, I fear we are moving in that direction.

With that said, I think in our culture something like business casual or a simple dress (for women) or a button-up shirt and khakis (for men) would be appropriate attire for worship. I'm not arguing for sloppy or gratuitously casual clothing. Refusal to put effort into one's appearance very probably reflects a heart that isn't directed toward God -- so I do not think we really disagree!

Edit: I can see another argument in favor of the "clothing matters" idea -- the headcoverings requirement. I'm not sure how far we can take that, but I thought of that, and wanted to mention that I will be thinking more about the issue.

 

[raekwon]

*sigh*

 

[Augusta]

 

[LadyFlynt]

Headcovering IS mentioned...apples and oranges, Evie. Whole different discussion.

I will say that the idea of "dressing up" or even "dress in your best" is a cultural one. Unfortunately, the cultural can leave out portions of society.

Tracy, what do you say to the one who owns no "best" (not even highwaters)? They own what they own. And yes, I have known people like that.