Postmillennialism and the Law

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Dachaser said:
yes, they should be, but we will always be in the minority, as the Kingdoms of this Age will not be summit to Jesus until he returns to force them to.
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That doesn't necessarily follow. Minority groups usually determine the laws and structure of any nation. Most people are apathetic and don't care unless one gets them riled up.
 
Dachaser said:
Again, while we should try to be Christian principles into our cultures, we are mandated to be do that as our primary focus, as we are to preach to see God save out His own, and to then discipline and mature those now saved. We will still influence our cultures and relationships, but not in full will that happen until the Second Coming occurs.
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A postmillennial reconstructionist agrees with everything you stated. The phrase" not in full" is ambiguous but it doesn't contradict postmil.
 
I agree, but my understanding is that we as the Body of Christ are not here to affect laws and change society as our main emphasis though. as that is the natural byproduct of being salt and light, but not the primary focus.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
A postmillennial reconstructionist agrees with everything you stated. The phrase" not in full" is ambiguous but it doesn't contradict postmil.
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I misquoted here, should have stated"NOT our primary focus" as the Preaching and teaching Of Jesus is to be our main focus while still here.
 
Dachaser said:
the Preaching and teaching Of Jesus is to be our main focus while still here.
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Sure but, again, you haven't answered my question about what preaching and teaching Jesus entails. Are we to just preach on the hypostatic union? Christology? Soteriology? Ministers are to preach the whole counsel of God, not just "Christ" in this strict sense. Further, preaching does not happen in a vacuum. You are preaching to real people. Businessmen, mothers, civil magistrates, doctors, lawyers, electricians, legislators, artists etc. The job of the minister is to equip the saints. Equip them for what? The work of service. Service where? Just in the home and church? Or also in their roles as citizens and public people? If you are a pastor in your state capital and you know that you have a congregation full of politicians, you have a job to equip those men to obey and serve King Jesus and to love their neighbors with their vocations.
 
One of the main aspects of the New Covenant is the Law being written on our hearts that we may walk in it. I don't really understand how we can get around affirming that this Law applies to our home and church but once we step foot outside those two institutions than the Law is not much of a concern.
 
zsmcd said:
One of the main aspects of the New Covenant is the Law being written on our hearts that we may walk in it. I don't really understand how we can get around affirming that this Law applies to our home and church but once we step foot outside those two institutions than the Law is not much of a concern.
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the law will not be the main rule of the land, as in the entire earth until the Second Coming event though, in my understanding, as the King has to be present to have His full kingdom and ans His will be done here on earth as in heaven.
 
zsmcd said:
Sure but, again, you haven't answered my question about what preaching and teaching Jesus entails. Are we to just preach on the hypostatic union? Christology? Soteriology? Ministers are to preach the whole counsel of God, not just "Christ" in this strict sense. Further, preaching does not happen in a vacuum. You are preaching to real people. Businessmen, mothers, civil magistrates, doctors, lawyers, electricians, legislators, artists etc. The job of the minister is to equip the saints. Equip them for what? The work of service. Service where? Just in the home and church? Or also in their roles as citizens and public people? If you are a pastor in your state capital and you know that you have a congregation full of politicians, you have a job to equip those men to obey and serve King Jesus and to love their neighbors with their vocations.
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We instruct Christians on how to be better disciples, and to take the scriptures and those principles to wherever they are at, to be an influence for the common good.
 
Dachaser said:
I misquoted here, should have stated"NOT our primary focus" as the Preaching and teaching Of Jesus is to be our main focus while still here.
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Dachaser said:
We instruct Christians on how to be better disciples, and to take the scriptures and those principles to wherever they are at, to be an influence for the common good.
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And how is that different from Reconstructionism? I admit, it's watered-down but no recon would disagree.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
And how is that different from Reconstructionism? I admit, it's watered-down but no recon would disagree.
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I see us as Christians influencing society and culture by bring into them the light of Christ, but do not expect to see a turn to God on a big scale, nor to see the law as being instituted as a national civil rule in nations.
 
Dachaser said:
I see us as Christians influencing society and culture by bring into them the light of Christ, but do not expect to see a turn to God on a big scale, nor to see the law as being instituted as a national civil rule in nations.
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Yes, I am aware of what premils teach. But I'm not sure how "influencing society and culture by bring into them the light of Christ" is that different from what I am claiming.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
Yes, I am aware of what premils teach. But I'm not sure how "influencing society and culture by bring into them the light of Christ" is that different from what I am claiming.
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I think the 2 main differences is what the mission of the Church actually is here on earth, and to what extent the non saved world will get affected by the Church until the Second Coming event.
 
Dachaser said:
I think the 2 main differences is what the mission of the Church actually is here on earth, and to what extent the non saved world will get affected by the Church until the Second Coming event.
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Spell out that extent, then. Will it look more like defeat for Jesus or victory for Jesus?
 
Reverend Martyn Lloyd-Jones in his sermons on the last days contained in 'Great Doctrines of the Bible', goes over the various positions on the millennium, and when he gets to post mill he says that since the two world wars, the great depression, the failure of education to change man for the better, the post mill viewpoint is virtually dead.

I used to go along with that point of view, and if current 'culture' is any barometer it would seem a golden age preceding the millennium is a fantasy. Then I began to think more about the power of God. While I still hold to the amill perspective, with man post mill is impossible, with God all things are possible.

Of course, if there is a revival that encompasses mankind such a world is possible. We are transformed by the renewing of our mind. If the Spirit is not in you, you are none of his, and in spite of the sin that dwells in us, I think that as a person grows in Christ he will begin to hunger and thirst after righteousness, and mourn that he cannot achieve it in this life. Say that to say, that Christians begin to reflect that change in all of their daily life. Perhaps mine is a naive outlook, as I'm no theologian, but that is what I think at present.
 
JimmyH said:
and when he gets to post mill he says that since the two world wars, the great depression, the failure of education to change man for the better, the post mill viewpoint is virtually dead.
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I remember his saying that. The sword cuts both ways. The black plague wiped out most of Europe at one time. Things have gotten beter. ERgo, postmillennialism.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
and the Jews being brought in,
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Are the So called Jews still Gods Special People the apple of his eye?

I was under the impression that God Divorced the synagogue of Satan and therefore cannot take her back again.
 
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BG said:
Are the So called Jews still Gods Special People the apple of his eye?

I was under the impression that God Divorced the synagogue of Satan and therefore cannot take her back again.
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No. They are covenantally dead and divorced. However, God promises ethnic Jews back into the fold on Jesus' terms.
 
Note WLC 191 on the conversion of the Jews:
Q. 191. What do we pray for in the second petition?

A. In the second petition, (which is, Thy kingdom come,) acknowledging ourselves and all mankind to be by nature under the dominion of sin and Satan, we pray, that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fullness of the Gentiles brought in; the church furnished with all gospel-officers and ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate: that the ordinances of Christ may be purely dispensed, and made effectual to the converting of those that are yet in their sins, and the confirming, comforting, and building up of those that are already converted: that Christ would rule in our hearts here, and hasten the time of his second coming, and our reigning with him forever: and that he would be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world, as may best conduce to these ends.
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Note also that the clause is placed right next to "the fullness of the Gentiles brought in." Both clearly refer to Romans 11:
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
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This follows right on the heels of Paul's discussing the Jews being cut out of the vine, the Gentiles being grafted in, and God's intention to graft the Jews back in.
 
Paul states though in Romans that He will save all of Israel, and that when the Jews do finally return back to God, how much greater will that be, as we gentiles are wild roots grafting in, but they are the natural ones.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
So, he is defeated within history before the Return?
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Not defeated, as it is NOT His goal in this present age to do what Post Mil sees happening, as His main concern and emhasis is to call out a People for His name sake, and once He comes back, then we will have that Golden Age foretold by the OT prophets and the NT Apostles.
 
Dachaser said:
Not defeated, as it is NOT His goal in this present age to do what Post Mil sees happening, as His main concern and emhasis is to call out a People for His name sake, and once He comes back, then we will have that Golden Age foretold by the OT prophets and the NT Apostles.
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His goal is to have his disciple the nations and reign until they are brought under his feet, then the comes the end.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
His goal is to have his disciple the nations and reign until they are brought under his feet, then the comes the end.
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He will reign over this earth , when His full Kingdom is established on the earth at His second coming, as until that event happens, he is permitting evil and sin to runs its course here.
 
Dachaser said:
He will reign over this earth , when His full Kingdom is established on the earth at His second coming, as until that event happens, he is permitting evil and sin to runs its course here.
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That is the opposite of what 1 Corinthians 15 says. He will reign, then comes the end, where he delivers his kingdom over to his Father.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
Is Jesus reigning now?
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He is right now the Lord, so yes, but he also is right now allowing/permitting sin and evil to go on for His purposes here on earth, and when he reigns here in person, that shall all cease, as His will shall be done on earth just as now in heaven.
 
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