The "Great Tradition" and Post Reformation Orthodoxy

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Are these things true?

1. You confess that God is simple.
2. You believe the Scriptures reveal that He is simple.
3. You can confess the Nicene Creed.
4. But, you do not agree with the Thomistic definitions of the above.
(1) I'm not trying to be annoying but it depends what you mean by 'simplicity'. Oliver Crisp has a paper called 'A Parsimonious Model of Simplicity' which I could affirm. I can list out his six criteria for that model of simplicity here if you want, but the whole paper will bring some clarity on some of the issues. I cannot agree that God's will and God's existence are identical because of the reasons I've given. The Thomistic model of simplicity, the model that is the standard one defended by most today, affirms this. It just isn't a coherent model, and even those who say they agree with it, when pushed, end up modifying something. John Owen, for one, clearly can't consistently affirm it as he speaks of 'a new habitude of will in the Father and Son towards each other that is not in them essentially; I call it new, as being in God freely, not naturally' in making the covenant of grace. This is just not an option for the consistent Thomist for reasons I've gone over in the thread (two wills, for one, one free, one natural).

(2) No, I don't think it is taught explicitly in Scripture without altering the original intent of the text, nor do I think it has ever been primarily motivated by Scripture by its defenders. It is defended on the basis of perfect being theology, on the one hand (to preserve God's ultimacy for instance), and/or cosmological arguments on the other (which is how Thomas Aquinas arrives at it). The WCF proof texts for 'without...parts' are, well, not convincing (please tell me if you disagree) and I've already dealt with the difference between 'is' of identity and 'is' of predication when the Bible says things like 'God is love'. That is not the 'is' of identity or else we could say 'Love is God'. It is a predicate statement. So I am sincerely asking those who disagree to tell me where this is clearly revealed in Scripture without bending the text.

(3) Yes, without hesitancy, and I cannot see how those who do affirm modal collapse or say that God could not freely have created or not created can do the same. I also think those who have strong realist tendencies have problems here (such as bootstrapping objection if God creates abstract objects).

(4) I do not agree with Thomas' metaphysics, no, but some of what he says I can agree with (without agreeing with his metaphysical views).
 
If I am understanding things then I think the point here is that holes themselves aren't a thing that has an actual existence, per se, but rather it's kind of an abstract concept. By definition, holes (themselves) don't exist, because they are what we call a place where something is not.

In the example given, there is no "hole" in the shirt (what is a hole made out of anyway?), but there is a mathematically definable space in which no shirt material currently exists but could have existed (or previously did exist) in a non-faulty shirt.
Yes, that's pretty much it. The problem for those who hold to the real existence of properties is that 'holes' do have properties, e.g. we can say what diameter the hole is. So something that doesn't exist has a real property. If properties aren't really something that exist, then there's no problem, because something that doesn't really exist can't actually 'have' anything. If that makes sense. Very hard to do this on a discussion board. Going to take a large break after lol.
 
(1) I'm not trying to be annoying but it depends what you mean by 'simplicity'. Oliver Crisp has a paper called 'A Parsimonious Model of Simplicity' which I could affirm. I can list out his six criteria for that model of simplicity here if you want, but the whole paper will bring some clarity on some of the issues. I cannot agree that God's will and God's existence are identical because of the reasons I've given. The Thomistic model of simplicity, the model that is the standard one defended by most today, affirms this. It just isn't a coherent model, and even those who say they agree with it, when pushed, end up modifying something. John Owen, for one, clearly can't consistently affirm it as he speaks of 'a new habitude of will in the Father and Son towards each other that is not in them essentially; I call it new, as being in God freely, not naturally' in making the covenant of grace. This is just not an option for the consistent Thomist for reasons I've gone over in the thread (two wills, for one, one free, one natural).

(2) No, I don't think it is taught explicitly in Scripture without altering the original intent of the text, nor do I think it has ever been primarily motivated by Scripture by its defenders. It is defended on the basis of perfect being theology, on the one hand (to preserve God's ultimacy for instance), and/or cosmological arguments on the other (which is how Thomas Aquinas arrives at it). The WCF proof texts for 'without...parts' are, well, not convincing (please tell me if you disagree) and I've already dealt with the difference between 'is' of identity and 'is' of predication when the Bible says things like 'God is love'. That is not the 'is' of identity or else we could say 'Love is God'. It is a predicate statement. So I am sincerely asking those who disagree to tell me where this is clearly revealed in Scripture without bending the text.

(3) Yes, without hesitancy, and I cannot see how those who do affirm modal collapse or say that God could not freely have created or not created can do the same. I also think those who have strong realist tendencies have problems here (such as bootstrapping objection if God creates abstract objects).

(4) I do not agree with Thomas' metaphysics, no, but some of what he says I can agree with (without agreeing with his metaphysical views).
"Simple" and "without parts" are pretty much the same thing.

Do you deny that God is "without parts"? In this thread, Church Fathers confess that God is simple - some pointing out He is not corporeal and composed of parts. Given that, the WCF prooftexts make perfect sense.

6 DEU 4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female. JOH 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. LUK 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
 
"Simple" and "without parts" are pretty much the same thing.

Do you deny that God is "without parts"? In this thread, Church Fathers confess that God is simple - some pointing out He is not corporeal and composed of parts. Given that, the WCF prooftexts make perfect sense.

6 DEU 4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female. JOH 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. LUK 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Yes I can easily affirm this, but then if you read Muller’s Dictionary of Greek and Latin Theological Terms (second edition) he has two definitions of simplicity, a weaker one and a stronger one, and the weaker one is easy to affirm and would be easily defended by the Scripture you give. But the stronger definition, which is what I think people want me to affirm, is saying a whole lot more.
 
"Simple" and "without parts" are pretty much the same thing.

Do you deny that God is "without parts"? In this thread, Church Fathers confess that God is simple - some pointing out He is not corporeal and composed of parts. Given that, the WCF prooftexts make perfect sense.

6 DEU 4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female. JOH 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. LUK 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Hasn't this already been answered? If one does not believe in parts, that necessarily entails an affirmation that God is without parts. Or does affirming the confessional phrasing also require believing in "parts" to begin with?
 
Here is what Beeke and Jones note in "A Puritan Theology"

God’s Simplicity

This might seem a strange heading given that Charnock’s discourse on the attributes of God does not have a section devoted explicitly to the simplicity of God (simplicitas Dei). Indeed, as Richard Muller notes, while “the concept of divine simplicity was held by virtually all of the orthodox theologians of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, it was not invariably discussed as a separate attribute in their theological systems.”11 There is no question, however, that Charnock affirms the simplicity of God in many places. The concept of divine simplicity, that God is free from all composition, is affirmed by Reformation and post-Reformation theologians.12 He is not a being composed as the sum of its parts: “God is the most simple being; for that which is first in nature, having nothing beyond it, cannot by any means be thought to be compounded.”13 Francis Turretin (1623–1687) explains divine simplicity in refuting the Socinians, who rejected this concept in order to reject the doctrine of the Trinity, and the Remonstrants, who denied that the doctrine must be affirmed as an article of faith since, as they saw it, the Scriptures are silent on the matter.14 The simplicity of God is an elusive concept, but one way of understanding what Reformed theologians mean by it is by negation and affirmation. Negatively, simplicity denies that there is one thing and another in God. Positively, simplicity affirms that whatever is in God is God. Simplicity, then, is God’s “incommunicable attribute by which the divine nature is conceived by us not only as free from all composition and division, but also as incapable of composition and divisibility.”15

Charnock’s understanding of God’s simplicity reflects the basic position of the Reformed orthodox. In the first place, simplicity reflects the consistency of God’s attributes.16 Mutability is “absolutely inconsistent with simplicity,” for if God “could be changed by anything within himself, all in God would not be God.”17 God’s power is also linked to His simplicity. The more simple a substance is, the more powerful it is. Hence, Charnock adds, “Where there is the greatest simplicity, there is the greatest unity; and where there is the greatest unity, there is the greatest power.”18 It is therefore incorrect to argue that God is the sum of all the divine attributes. Rather, the attributes are identical with the essence of God. Charnock affirmed that divine simplicity is absolutely essential for understanding the other divine attributes; indeed, all other divine attributes depend upon this concept. In discussing the divine attributes (e.g., His immutability and eternity), the concept of divine simplicity is axiomatic for Charnock’s understanding of the doctrine of God, as it was for Reformed scholastic divines.19



11 Muller, Post-Reformation, 3:275.
12 For a brief account of this concept in the thought of John Owen, see Carl Trueman, John Owen: Reformed Catholic, Renaissance Man (Aldershot: Ashgate, 2007), 38–39.
13 Charnock, Existence and Attributes, 210.
14 Francis Turretin, Institutes of Elenctic Theology, ed. James T. Dennison Jr., trans. George Musgrave Giger (Phillipsburg, N.J.: P&R, 1992), 3.7.1.
15 Turretin, Institutes, 3.7.3. On communicable and incommunicable attributes, see Leigh, Treatise of Divinity, 2:22–23.
16 Leigh also maintains that because God is a most simple being He must also be incorporeal. Treatise of Divinity, 2:24.
17 Charnock, Existence and Attributes, 210.
18 Charnock, Existence and Attributes, 415.
19 The question regarding whether the concept of divine simplicity is consistent with the Trinity is answered by te Velde: “Is not the existence of three Persons in God a form of composition? The Reformed orthodox writers are unanimous in their denial: the Persons do not compose, but only distinguish (personae non component, sed distinguunt). The three Persons do not relate to each other as different beings, but as distinct modes of being (modi subsistentiae) or modifications.” Paths, 126.
 
And her is Muller (notice that Simplicity doesn't have a single sense but is guarding an idea).
3. Divine simplicity. Among the divine attributes one stands forth as a governing concept which determines the way in which theology discusses the attributes and their relation to the divine essence: the divine simplicity. Here we encounter the basic question of the difference between God and his creatures and of the relation of universals to God. Indeed, the question of the reality of universals and of the relation of universals to the object of which they are predicated defines the problem of the divine attributes: what are attributes when they are predicated of God? When we say God is infinite, omnipotent, omniscient, just, good, loving, and so forth have we exhaustively described the divine essence? And in doing so, have we conceived of God in a composite way, as we conceive of creatures—as a sum of properties or parts? And is this description legitimate?

The doctrine of divine simplicity is among the normative assumptions of theology from the time of the church fathers,57 to the age of the great medieval scholastic systems,58 to the era of Reformation and post-Reformation theology, and indeed, on into the succeeding era of late orthodoxy and rationalism. Recent studies of divine simplicity, notably those that have appeared since the major essay by Stump and Kretzmann,59 have taken rather different directions. Davies, for example, argues (with specific reference to Aquinas) that “from first to last the doctrine of divine simplicity is a piece of negative or apophatic theology and not a purported description of God,” certainly not a concept that stands in the way of the positive doctrines concerning revealed attributes and the Trinity. Similar conclusions have been reached by Immink.60 Mann, by way of contrast, understands the doctrine in an affirmative (as distinct from an apophatic) sense and also as a denial of all distinction in the divine essence: he neither indicates a variety of formulation nor acknowledges the possibility of distinctions in a simple being—and he defends this doctrine as valid.61

Other modern writers, notably and Wolterstorff and Plantinga, however, have understood simplicity as ruling out all distinctions in God (including the distinction of persons in the Trinity), but, unlike Mann, go on to conclude that divine simplicity is contradictory or unintelligible, specifically in the form given to the doctrine by Aquinas.62 The traditional conception of simplicity, with its denial of composition, argues Plantinga, yields the conclusion that God “is identical with his nature and [with] each of his properties.” This conclusion in turn means that “if God is identical with each of his properties, then each of his properties is identical with each of his properties, so that God has but one property”; beyond this, “if God is identical with each of his properties, then, since each of his properties is a property, he is a property—a self-exemplifying property.”63 Such doctrine undermines any claim that God’s power is distinct from his mercy—as, indeed, it undermines the assumption that God is a “person” as distinct from a “mere abstract object.” “No property,” Plantinga notes, “could have created the world.” He concludes, “So taken, the simplicity doctrine seems an utter mistake.”64 Indeed, so taken, the doctrine is a mistake—but it is arguable that few thinkers in the Christian tradition ever took it to mean this, given that the tradition has consistently affirmed not only divine simplicity but also the Trinity, the meaningful identification of divine attributes, and the creation of the world by God.65 The various modern readings of simplicity as indicating an utter absence of distinction in the Godhead misinterpret the traditional doctrine. Most modern writers have assumed a uniformity of argument in the Middle Ages, whereas there was in fact a massive debate—and the debate was not over the implications of a distinctionless notion of simplicity but over the precise nature of the distinctions that, arguably, belong to the Godhead.

According to traditional orthodoxy, there are distinctions in God, but they are distinctions that in no way detract from or impugn the non-compositeness and, therefore, the ultimacy of the divine essence. By way of example, the doctrine of the Trinity indicates that there are personal or relational distinctions in the Godhead—but, as the patristic doctrine of the Trinity (affirmed in toto by the scholastic tradition) indicates, threeness of person does not conflict with oneness of essence.66 The three persons participate in the one essence without dividing it into three parts: Christianity is monotheistic, not tritheistic. Nor is the existence of the three persons prior to the existence of the one God, as if the one God were a result of some activity on the part of the persons; or, indeed, as if the Trinity were the secondary essence or genus to which the three persons belong. In the doctrine of the Trinity—the classic conception of the unity and distinction of the persons—the issue is not merely to identify the distinction of persons, but to find a way to argue a certain manner of distinction (for the sake of manifesting the three) while at the very same time denying other kinds of distinction (for the sake of confessing the One). A similar point must be made concerning the divine attributes and the Reformed orthodox discussion of distinctions between them: the point was not merely either to affirm or to deny distinctions, but to identify the kinds of distinctions that could not be present in the Godhead and the kinds of distinctions that could be present, for the sake of affirming both the genuineness of the divine attributes and the oneness of God.67 The doctrine of divine simplicity, then, belongs to the full locus de Deo, the larger topics of essence, attributes, and Trinity—and it belongs there as having the specific function, not of ruling out distinctions per se, but of allowing only those distinctions in the Godhead that do not disrupt the understanding of the ultimacy and unity of the One God. With very few exceptions in the history of the docrine, discussion of simplicity, in the context of the full locus, provides the place at which the datum of divine oneness is coordinated with one level of distinction ad intra, corresponding with the distinction of attributes, and another level of distinction ad intra, corresponding with the necessarily different distinctions among the three divine persons.

Once this has been said, however, it is necessary to note that the doctrine of divine simplicity has not always been understood in the same way or received the same emphasis in theology. Stead has pointed out, for example, that the concepts of simplicity found in classical philosophy and in the church fathers should not easily be reduced to a “neat antithesis of simple and compound,” given that an “object which has no parts need not be wholly undifferentiated.”68 He nonetheless queries how this approach can cohere, given that the fathers, notably the Cappadocians, assume that the three persons can be distinguished and that there are energies and relations in the Godhead at the same time that it is a “simple undivided essence.”69 Some of this problem is dispelled in Krivocheine’s examination of Gregory of Nyssa’s theology, where the notion of simplicity is seen to be the exclusion only of compositeness and division, not of other kinds of distinction, notably the distinction between divine hypostases and divine energies or powers.70

Similarly, Augustine affirmed the divine simplicity on the ground that God is not composite and is devoid of accidents and did so primarily in the context of the doctrine of the Trinity as an affirmation of the fundamental unity and uniqueness of the Godhead.71 Nonetheless, Augustine indicated that (in addition to the distinction of the persons in the Trinity), there was some distinction of attributes: he spoke of God as “both simple and manifold,” having a “simple multiplicity or multifold simplicity” and held that the notion of simplicity undergirded and protected orthodox, post-Nicene trinitarianism.72 He also argued distinct ideas—the eternal exemplars of things—in the essence or mind of God. Augustine also assumed that God knows these distinct ideas as distinct ideas.73 Unfortunately, Krivocheine did not look farther than Gregory and, without examining later sources or, indeed, Augustine, assumed that medieval views of simplicity ruled out distinctions in the Godhead.74 What, arguably, he would have found had he taken the time to do look, is that the medieval writers, far from rendering the notion of divine simplicity problematic through speculation, actually took a patristic conception that, in its most strict forms, could stand in a problematic or paradoxical relationship to the distinction of divine attributes and the doctrine of the Trinity,75 and worked to develop a more nuanced and flexible concept that could rule out composition while at the same time allowing for the “operational complexity” of the Godhead.

Medieval thinkers consciously continued the patristic meditation and, even more fully than the fathers, argued that the identification of “simplicity” as uncompoundedness did not rule out either the distinction of divine persons or the distinction of divine attributes. Indeed, it would be one of the burdens of scholastic argumentation to identify precisely what kinds of distinction there might be in the simplicity or uncompoundedness of the Godhead. Anselm transferred the discussion from the fundamental location in the doctrine of the Trinity to a location in the discussion of the divine essence, and argued the point a bit more fully, again on the assumption that composition is an indication of incidental properties or accidents and a violation of the divine self-identity: “nothing that is truly said of the supreme Being is accepted in terms of quality or quantity, but only in terms of what it is; for … either quality or quantity would constitute another element.”76 This exclusion of composition functions primarily as a foundational statement of the necessary self-existence or aseity of God: God is ultimate, sole, underived and no other aspect of the doctrine of God (particularly not the doctrine of the Trinity) ought to be formulated in such as way as to undermine that truth.77 God’s unique existence, which is such that not only must it be, but it must also be the way it is, contains a vast richness of attributes that are the foundation of the attributes of created being.78 Still, it should not be concluded that Anselm’s effort to give structure to the discussion amounted to either a division of the topic of God into two separate topics (i.e., essence-attributes and Trinity) or to a removal of the theme of simplicity from the realm of trinitarian discussion. In Anselm, as in the fathers, simplicity serves to safeguard trinitarianism from tritheistic implications.79

Several interpretations of divine simplicity are already observable among the scholastics of the late twelfth century. Anselm, without great elaboration, stated a traditional doctrine of divine simplicity according to which the attributes belong to God essentially, not accidentally or as incidental properties: in Anselm’s example, it is the same for God to be just and to be justice itself, given that the justness or righteousness of God is not a separable property as righteousness is in human beings. This must be so, Anselm argues, inasmuch as God is just through himself, not through or on the basis of a prior justice in another. The divine attributes are not, therefore, descriptions of how God is or of what sort of being God is but are, specifically, statements of “what” God is.80 God is not a composite being. Still, Anselm appears to understand that the various attributions have meaning, namely, that they are not merely synonyms. He does not, however, elaborate on the point.

The debate over the theology of Gilbert de la Porée posed and saw the rejection of a theory of real distinctions among the divine attributes and the affirmation of a basic doctrine of divine simplicity, without however, answering the question of whether the attributes are merely distinct ad extra and in our human comprehension or are distinct in some manner ad intra apart from consideration by a human knower. Alain of Lille offered a solution that leaned strongly toward the former option: like the earlier tradition and echoing the Synod of Rheims, he argued that everything in God is God, allowing no essential distinction between the various divine attributes and affirming the utter simplicity of the divine being. The distinction of the attributes, therefore, is not in God himself but in the effects of God’s work ad extra. Nonetheless, given that these attributes are evident to us by way of causality, they are not merely names or terms applied by us to God but are in fact proper designations of the divine substance.81

In the standard definition of Lombard, the divine simplicity excludes all manner of composition, whether in terms of substance and accident, matter and form, parts, or attributes, and asserts the essential identity of God with all of his attributes or qualities. The attributes of God are not accidents or modifications of the divine being.82 In the structure of Lombard’s argument, moreover, the obvious purpose of this doctrine of simplicity is the affirmation of the full divinity of each of the persons of the Trinity, each of whom possesses the divine essence indivisibly. The divine attributes, therefore, belong to the persons not in their distinction but in their unity, as God—the persons are distinct according to their personal properties and not on the ground that they have differing divine attributes or, indeed, the same divine attributes in differing measures.83





57 Cf. e.g., Melito of Sardis, fragment 14, in Melito of Sardis On Pascha and Fragments, Texts and translations ed. Stuart G. Hall (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1979), p. 81; Irenaeus, Against Heresies., II.xiii.3–5; cf. IV.xxxviii.4, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers: Translations of the Writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325, ed. Roberts and Donaldson, 10 vols. (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1950–1951), I, pp. 373–374, 522 (hereinafter ANF); Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, IV.xxv; V.xii (ANF, II, pp. 438, 463–464); Origen, On First Principles, trans. G. W. Butterworth (New York: Harper & Row, 1966), I.i.6 (p. 10); Lactantius, Divine Institutes, I.ix (ANF, 7, p. 54); Eusebius Pamphilius, The Theophaneia or Divine Manifestation of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, trans. Samuel Lee (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1843), I.27–9 (pp. 17–19); Athanasius, Against the Heathen, xxviii, in A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, ed. Schaff and Wace, 2 series in 28 vols. (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), 2nd ser., IV, pp. 18–19 (hereinafter, NPNF); idem, Defense of the Nicene Definition, xi (NPNF, 2nd ser., IV, p. 157); idem, To the Bishops of Egypt, xvi (NPNF, 2nd ser., IV, p. 231); idem, Against the Arians, IV.1 (NPNF, 2nd ser., IV, p. 433); Gregory of Nyssa, Answer to Eunomius, I.19 (NPNF, 2nd ser., V, p. 57); idem, Answer to Eunomius’ Second Book, II (NPNF, 2nd ser., V, pp. 254–255); idem, Great Catechism, I, in ibid., pp. 474–476; Basil the Great, Letter 134, to Amphilochius (NPNF, 2nd ser., VIII, p. 274); Augustine, De Civitate Dei, XI.10; idem, De Trinitate, VI.iv–iv; XV.v.8 (NPNF, 1st ser., III, pp. 100–101, 203); Rufinus, On the Apostles’ Creed, 4 (NPNF, 2nd ser., III, p. 544); cf. W. J. Hill, “Simplicity,” s.v. in New Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. 12; Basil Krivocheine, “Simplicity of the Divine Nature and the Distinctions in God, According to St. Gregory of Nyssa,” in St. Vladimir’s Theological Quarterly, 21/2 (1977), pp. 76–104; idem, “Simplicité de la nature divine et les distinctions en Dieu selon S. Grégoire de Nysse,” in Studia Patristica 16/2 (1985), pp. 389–411; Eric Osborne, The Beginnings of Christian Philosophy (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1981), pp. 31–78; Christopher Stead, “Divine Simplicity as a Problem for Orthodoxy,” in Rowan D. Williams (ed.), The Making of Orthodoxy: Essays in Honor of Henry Chadwick (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1989), pp. 255–269; and Katherin Rogers, “The Traditional Doctrine of Divine Simplicity,” in Religious Studies, 32 (1996), pp. 165–186.
58 Cf. Lombard, Sententiae in IV libris distinctae, editio tertia, 2 vols. (Grottaferrata: Collegium S. Bonaventurae ad Claras Aquas, 1971–1981), I, d. 8, cap. 5–8; Alexander of Hales, Summa theologica, 4 vols., (Quaracchi: Collegium S. Bonaventurae, 1924–1948), pars I, inq. I, tract. 1, qu. 3, cap. 1–3; Thomas Aquinas, Summa theologiae cura fratrum in eiusdem ordinis, 5 vols. (Madrid: Biblioteca de Autores Cristianos, 1962–1965), 1a, q. 3; Bonaventure, In Sent., I, q. 8, in Opera omnia, (Quaracchi: Collegium S. Bonaventurae, 1882–1902), vol. I; Duns Scotus, Ordinatio., I, d. 8, q. 1; Ockham, In Sent., I, d. 8, q. 1, in Opera philosophica et theologica, (St. Bonaventure, New York: The Franciscan Institute, 1967–1986), vol. I. On Aquinas’ doctrine of simplicity, see Brian Davies, The Thought of Thomas Aquinas (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1992), pp. 44–57.
59 Eleonore Stump and Norman Kretzmann, “Absolute Simplicity,” in Faith and Philosophy, 2 (1985), pp. 353–382.
60 Brian Davies, “Classical Theism and the Doctrine of Divine Simplicity,” in Brian Davies (ed.), Language, Meaning and God: Essays in Honor of Herbert McCabe, OP (London: Cassell, 1987), p. 59; also see F. Gerrit Immink, “The One and Only: The Simplicity of God,” in Brink and Sarot (eds.), Understanding the Attributes of God, pp. 115–117; also see Christopher Hughes, On a Complex Theory of a Simple God (Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1989); and note Nash, Concept of God, pp. 85–97.
61 William Mann, “Divine Simplicity,” in Religious Studies, 21 (1982), pp. 451–471; and idem, “Simplicity and Immutability in God,” in The Concept of God, ed. Thomas V. Morris (Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press, 1987), pp. 253–267.
62 Thus, Plantinga, Does God Have a Nature?, pp. 46–47; Wolterstorff, “Divine Simplicity,” pp. 531–552.
63 Plantinga, Does God Have a Nature, pp. 46–47; note that Plantinga’s language here does not at all reflect Aquinas’ meaning: Aquinas assumes that the divine attributes are distinguishable and, therefore, not identical in every way. The scholastic understanding of “identity” assumes various levels of identity, e.g., essential identify and formal identity—so that the term “identity” does not indicate radical equation in every sense possible. The phrase “self-exemplifying property,” moreover, does not rightly describe Aquinas’ thought or, indeed, the thought of any other scholastic, inasmuch as in the traditional scholastic sense, no “property” or “attribute” could be, in itself, an individuum: see aequalitas, attributum, individuum, proprietas, s.v. in Roy J. Deferrari et al., A Lexicon of St. Thomas Aquinas based on the Summa theologica and selected passages of his other works, by Roy J. Deferrari and M. Inviolata Barry, with the collaboration of Ignatius McGuiness (Washington: Catholic Univ. of America Press, 1948); and aequalitas, attributum, identitas, priprium, s.v., in Fernandez Garcia, Lexicon Scholasticum Philosophico-Theologicum (Quaracchi: Collegium S. Bonaventurae, 1910); also see Geoffrey G. Bridges, Identity and Distinction in Petrus Thomae, O. F. M. (St. Bonaventure, N. Y.: Franciscan Institute, 1959), pp. 31–42 on the hierarchy of different levels of identity and/or distinction; also Henri Grenier, Thomistic Philosophy, trans. J. P. E. O’Hanley, 3 vols. (Charlottestown: St. Dunstan’s University, 1948), I, pp. 137–140.
64 Plantinga, Does God Have a Nature, p. 47.
65 Cf. Immink, “The One and Only,” pp. 115–17 and idem, Divine Simplicity, pp. 127–145.
66 Cf. G. L. Prestige, God in Patristic Thought, 2nd ed. (London: S.P.C.K., 1952), pp. 254–264, 282–291; Bertrand de Margerie, The Christian Trinity in History, trans. Edmund J. Fortman (Still River, Mass.: St. Bede’s, 1975), pp. 126–134, 143–146 et passim; and Seeberg, History, I, pp. 228–231, 238–243.
67 See below, 4.3 (D).
68 Stead, “Divine Simplicity as a Problem for Orthodoxy,” in Rowan D. Williams, ed., The Making of Orthodoxy: Essays in Honor of Henry Chadwick (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1989), p. 261. Stead does not recognize that the juxtaposition of simplicity with compositeness does not rule out the coincidence of simplicity with distinctions other than those that imply partition.
69 Stead, “Divine Simplicity as a Problem for Orthodoxy,” p. 267.
70 Krivocheine, “Simplicité de la nature divine,” pp. 394–405; idem, “Simplicity of the Divine Nature,” pp. 88–99.
71 Augustine, De trinitate, V.ii.3-v.6; x.11-xi.12 (NPNF, 1 ser., III, pp. 88–9, 92–3).
72 Augustine, De trinitate, VI.iv, vi (NPNF, 1st ser., III, pp. 100, 101); cf. Lewis Ayres and Michel R. Barnes, “God,” s.v., in Allan D. Firzgerald, ed., Augustine Though the Ages, esp. pp. 387–388.
73 Augustine, De trinitate, V.ii.3; xi.12; VI.iv.6; vi.8; Confessions, I.vi.9; De ideis, 2
74 Krivocheine, “Simplicité de la nature divine,” p. 410; cf., idem, “Simplicity of the Divine Nature,” p. 104.
75 The phrase “operational complexity” is from Stead, Divine Substance, p. 175. Stead, ibid., pp. 109, 163–164, 185–189, is also the source of my sense of the difficulties underlying the patristic usage of simplicity.
76 Anselm, Monologion, 17; cf. 25; cf. Immink, Divine Simplicity, pp. 27, 115–122.
77 Cf. John Moreall, “The Aseity of God in St. Anselm,” pp. 37–46.
78 Anselm, Monologion, 16; cf. Proslogion, 5; and Immink, “One and Only, pp. 114–115.
79 Cf. Anselm Prosolgion, 23 with Anselm, On the Incarnation of the Word, iv–v.
80 Anselm, Monologion, XVI.
81 Chossat, “Dieu. Sa nature selon les scolastiques,” col. 1169.
82 Lombard, Sententiae, I, dist. 8, cap. 3.
83 Cf. Marcia L. Colish, Peter Lombard, 2 vols. (Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1994), I, pp. 245–247.
 
Now, the problem (as I see it) is that you deny "universals" but it doesn't really solve the problem in my mind. Assuming that the Reformed Orthodox were trying to guard the idea of God's unity by noting that "parts" are not merely corporeal but include universals then it does seem to me that you would have to find that part of the WCF and WLC "non-sensical" since you deny "parts" in the sense the Reformed would have fully understood them.

Am I missing something?
 
Hasn't this already been answered? If one does not believe in parts, that necessarily entails an affirmation that God is without parts. Or does affirming the confessional phrasing also require believing in "parts" to begin with?
Yes, I think so. I'm slow on the uptake but it does seem that, no matter how you slice it, "parts" include not only corporeal parts but universals themselves.

Thus, it seems that those who deny that there are real attributes would have to also deny that He is without parts as the Divines would have conceived them. It seems that the reason the Puritans included these texts is that they were more than "proof texters" and that GNC would lead one to the idea that God as Spirit includes that He is "without parts" in the stronger sense.
 
Hasn't this already been answered? If one does not believe in parts, that necessarily entails an affirmation that God is without parts. Or does affirming the confessional phrasing also require believing in "parts" to begin with?
Yes, but one live question it is trying to say God's attributes aren't parts. In other words, Love and Justice aren't different "Things" in God. But if they aren't different "things" in God, then it seems that they are all the same in one sense.
 
Yes, I think so. I'm slow on the uptake but it does seem that, no matter how you slice it, "parts" include not only corporeal parts but universals themselves.

Thus, it seems that those who deny that there are real attributes would have to also deny that He is without parts as the Divines would have conceived them. It seems that the reason the Puritans included these texts is that they were more than "proof texters" and that GNC would lead one to the idea that God as Spirit includes that He is "without parts" in the stronger sense.
I'm probably slower on the uptake than you, lol. I like philosophy, but I'm no philosopher. No one is going to be saying "look at the big philosophical brain on MarrowMan" anytime soon.

I'm concerned more with the Confessional orthodoxy matter. It seems that one comes to the same conclusion, albeit from differing perspectives. Either God is without parts because He is not the sum total of His attributes, or He is without parts because parts aren't a thing. Either way, you end up in the same place. That is, simplicity. I'm not entirely convinced that being Confessionally orthodox requires you arrive at the position in the same manner that the Divines did. Otherwise, you are saying that the Confessional position isn't really simplicity, but a belief in universals.
 
Either God is without parts because He is not the sum total of His attributes, or He is without parts because parts aren't a thing. Either way, you end up in the same place. That is, simplicity.

Maybe. But then all of us are simple, since parts aren't a thing. (somewhat tongue-in-cheek)
 
Now, the problem (as I see it) is that you deny "universals" but it doesn't really solve the problem in my mind. Assuming that the Reformed Orthodox were trying to guard the idea of God's unity by noting that "parts" are not merely corporeal but include universals then it does seem to me that you would have to find that part of the WCF and WLC "non-sensical" since you deny "parts" in the sense the Reformed would have fully understood them.

Am I missing something?
I dispute the existence of all abstract objects/entities which would include universals.

I don’t think it’s nonsensical at all as I know exactly what they meaning to affirm. I will add here that I can’t say for sure whether all of the Divines were realists about universals - I know that at least some of the Reformed Orthodox weren’t.

Again, the question is whether this is committing me to accepting abstract entities into my ontology just so I can affirm ‘without parts’ in the exact same sense as the Divines meant it, rather than it being vacuously true in the way I mentioned above with my mobile phone example. But I think the standard for confessionalism is starting to look very unrealistic if we go down this route, committing people to all sorts of things they wouldn’t have realised or understand without a sufficient philosophical education.

I’m still wanting to hear back from Reuben on this point as his statement implied that one would have to accept an Aristotelian metaphysic to be a minister in his denomination.
 
Maybe. But then all of us are simple, since parts aren't a thing. (somewhat tongue-in-cheek)
This actually is one legitimate point which could be made, and I’m surprised hasn’t been so far, as some might think this compromises God’s uniqueness, given that part of the motivation for DDS is to show a distinction between God and all composite things.

But then there already is a clear distinction that shows God is unique or the sole ultimate reality. God exists necessarily, while we are contingent. God is uncreated, we are His creatures.
 
Anyway, unless I’m still facing the ban hammer and need to make my case further, I really do need to take a break from this.
 
I dispute the existence of all abstract objects/entities which would include universals.

I don’t think it’s nonsensical at all as I know exactly what they meaning to affirm. I will add here that I can’t say for sure whether all of the Divines were realists about universals - I know that at least some of the Reformed Orthodox weren’t.

Again, the question is whether this is committing me to accepting abstract entities into my ontology just so I can affirm ‘without parts’ in the exact same sense as the Divines meant it, rather than it being vacuously true in the way I mentioned above with my mobile phone example. But I think the standard for confessionalism is starting to look very unrealistic if we go down this route, committing people to all sorts of things they wouldn’t have realised or understand without a sufficient philosophical education.

I’m still wanting to hear back from Reuben on this point as his statement implied that one would have to accept an Aristotelian metaphysic to be a minister in his denomination.
A specifically Aristotelian metaphysic is not required. None of the Fathers quoted in my other post were Aristotelians. But they all knew what "simple" and "composite" mean.
But one should be able to affirm that the term "substance" or "essence" is meaningful.
"Essence" is ordinarily defined as "what something is."
Can you affirm that things exist, and that they have natures?
 
A specifically Aristotelian metaphysic is not required. None of the Fathers quoted in my other post were Aristotelians. But they all knew what "simple" and "composite" mean.
But one should be able to affirm that the term "substance" or "essence" is meaningful.
"Essence" is ordinarily defined as "what something is."
Can you affirm that things exist, and that they have natures?

That "things" actually exist and are real, and are made of "stuff" seems so horribly self-evident, and that I must be misunderstand what's being talked about here.

(As an aside: It's so freeing to be able to admit being ignorant of things. I used to be a know-it-all. Do you know how TAXING it is to continuously be a know-it-all when you don't actually know-it-all?)
 
That "things" actually exist and are real, and are made of "stuff" seems so horribly self-evident, and that I must be misunderstand what's being talked about here.

(As an aside: It's so freeing to be able to admit being ignorant of things. I used to be a know-it-all. Do you know how TAXING it is to continuously be a know-it-all when you don't actually know-it-all?)

What is the soul made of?

You are correct that the default view seems commonsensical. I myself have publicly espoused that view, at least on knowledge.

Terms like "simple" and "composite" take on a new discussion when we talk about God, justice, love, soul, etc.
 
What is the soul made of?

You are correct that the default view seems commonsensical. I myself have publicly espoused that view, at least on knowledge.



Terms like "simple" and "composite" take on a new discussion when we talk about God, justice, love, soul, etc.
I don't know what the soul is made of, but I also don't know what my wife's weird coffee mug is made of either, but I can hold it in my hands and it exists.

I have confidence that my soul exists as a real thing too, not as an abstraction, even if I can't hold it in my hand and God alone knows what it's made of.

Likewise we confess that God is spirit. I can't see spirit or hold it, but it's "something" and not "nothing".

That said, it's not sensible to me to speak of things like "love" and "wrath" and "goodness" as being "stuff" that's "made out of something". These are abstractions that we can describe and talk about but they don't seem to me to be substances or essences.

As far as "simple" vs. "composite" go, we have real world examples of things that are "simple" and have "properties" but the properties are not identical to one another.

Take a proton for example. A proton is a composite structure. Each proton is made out of two "Up" quarks and one "Down" quark. Each quark, however, is a simple structure. They aren't made out of anything else. You can't cut a quark in half. They aren't made of parts. They have zero size. (Their height, width, depth are all zero). They are essentially one dimensional points.

But they have mass, angular momentum, charge, and "color charge" (yes that's a thing, and no it doesn't mean "color" the same way we mean "grass is green"). And their mass isn't the same thing as their charge, and their charge isn't the same thing as their angular momentum, etc.

So I am not sure why we can't confess God to be simple and yet his attributes not be the same as each other.

Maybe I just haven't read enough Plato, Aristotle, and Aquinas.
 
I’m still wanting to hear back from Reuben on this point as his statement implied that one would have to accept an Aristotelian metaphysic to be a minister in his denomination.

I'm still waiting to hear whether you think you're in line with the Westminster Confession or not!

My statement did not imply that only Aristotelians can be ministers. Since I'm in a Three Forms of Unity church, if I asked an examinee, "Do you affirm that God is simple?" and they replied "I reject the metaphysic that made that affirmation meaningful" they would be asked to clarify. I don't know how that would go, because it hasn't come up yet, but if I were the questioner I would press them in several ways:
1. Within the framework of the Belgic Confession, do you disagree with the statement?
2. Is there an equivalent affirmation that you can make within your framework?
3. Is your framework more important to you than the confessional boundaries?
4. Are there any other areas where your framework leads you to conclude the Confession is wrong/meaningless/misleading?
5. What impact will this have on your teaching and preaching?
6. What impact will this have on your maintenance of our doctrinal standards?
7. Do you think Guido de Bres was wrong to include the word "simple" in Article 1?

Depending on how those answers went, we might move on, or it might be followed up with another:

8. If our Confession is wrong/incoherent/nonsensical on the doctrine of God, why do you want a license to preach in our church?

If the answers were catastrophic, there might be a motion to arrest the examination then and there. Otherwise, we would carry on asking other questions about the loci of theology and other matters, and eventually the Candidates and Credentials Committee would make a recommendation about approving the exam or not. Usually exams are only arrested when the Classis has come back from a break, or when the prescribed areas have been covered.
 
That "things" actually exist and are real, and are made of "stuff" seems so horribly self-evident, and that I must be misunderstand what's being talked about here.

(As an aside: It's so freeing to be able to admit being ignorant of things. I used to be a know-it-all. Do you know how TAXING it is to continuously be a know-it-all when you don't actually know-it-all?)
Well yes, it's rather obvious. But Aristotle defines words like "essence" rather simply; for example, "what something is." So I'm a bit at a loss as to how that could be objectionable, unless one is reading strange medieval ideas into the terms, like Thomas's ideas of universals, matter as a principle of individuation, etc.
But those who drafted the confession weren't dominican Monks. They were using the terms in a general, Aristotelian way, without specificly Thomist commitments.
 
I don't know what the soul is made of, but I also don't know what my wife's weird coffee mug is made of either, but I can hold it in my hands and it exists.

I have confidence that my soul exists as a real thing too, not as an abstraction, even if I can't hold it in my hand and God alone knows what it's made of.

Likewise we confess that God is spirit. I can't see spirit or hold it, but it's "something" and not "nothing".

That said, it's not sensible to me to speak of things like "love" and "wrath" and "goodness" as being "stuff" that's "made out of something". These are abstractions that we can describe and talk about but they don't seem to me to be substances or essences.

As far as "simple" vs. "composite" go, we have real world examples of things that are "simple" and have "properties" but the properties are not identical to one another.

Take a proton for example. A proton is a composite structure. Each proton is made out of two "Up" quarks and one "Down" quark. Each quark, however, is a simple structure. They aren't made out of anything else. You can't cut a quark in half. They aren't made of parts. They have zero size. (Their height, width, depth are all zero). They are essentially one dimensional points.

But they have mass, angular momentum, charge, and "color charge" (yes that's a thing, and no it doesn't mean "color" the same way we mean "grass is green"). And their mass isn't the same thing as their charge, and their charge isn't the same thing as their angular momentum, etc.

So I am not sure why we can't confess God to be simple and yet his attributes not be the same as each other.

Maybe I just haven't read enough Plato, Aristotle, and Aquinas.
Is there anything in God that isn't God?
 
Is there anything in God that isn't God?

That depends on what you mean when you consider whether something is "in" God or not.

If God is simple (which I wholeheartedly affirm), then there is nothing "in" God but God-ness (which makes the answer to your question to be "no"), though there are things about God-ness that can be said and are true.
 
That depends on what you mean when you consider whether something is "in" God or not.

If God is simple (which I wholeheartedly affirm), then there is nothing "in" God but God-ness (which makes the answer to your question to be "no"), though there are things about God-ness that can be said and are true.

I don't mean in spatially, since God isn't circumscribed. It comes down to this: if the attributes aren't God, then God is dependent on things that aren't God for him to be God. That obviously cannot work. If the attributes are God, then they can't be separate in a real sense. That is why these discussions usually say "God is his attributes."
 
That depends on what you mean when you consider whether something is "in" God or not.

If God is simple (which I wholeheartedly affirm), then there is nothing "in" God but God-ness (which makes the answer to your question to be "no"), though there are things about God-ness that can be said and are true.
Of course. That's called a rational distinction. Everyone affirms that, including Thomas.
Only Jews say that no distinction, even a merely cognitive one, can be made between God's attributes.
The orthodox say God's attributes are really identical (that is, in the thing itself), but they can be distinguished by us as we reason about God, because we don't define love, wrath, goodness, mercy, existence, decrees, will, etc in exactly the same way.
 
This actually is one legitimate point which could be made, and I’m surprised hasn’t been so far, as some might think this compromises God’s uniqueness, given that part of the motivation for DDS is to show a distinction between God and all composite things.

But then there already is a clear distinction that shows God is unique or the sole ultimate reality. God exists necessarily, while we are contingent. God is uncreated, we are His creatures.
Does saying God exists necessarily make you a necessitarian?

I won't wait for laughter or crickets in response to that, so moving on to my actual point. If God exists necessarily, while we are contingent, then it follows that God must not be composed of anything. Were he composed in any way, that of which he is composed would be in some way prior to him, and God could no longer be said to exist necessarily, while that of which he is composed would replace him as that which must necessarily exist. By way of contrast, we must be composed of something in order for our existence to be contingent.

By modifying/discarding/whatever it is that you're doing with the doctrine of simplicity (and although I know myself to be not all that bright, it's nice to see that I'm not the only one here at a loss), you undercut the foundation for believing in God's necessity and our contingency and of the creator-creature distinction. It would be analogous to discarding the notions of eternal generation and spiration and then saying "But then there already is a clear distinction - God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit". God exists necessarily, as the one being to whom nothing can be prior, because he is simple. Because God is simple, nothing else can be.

I'm no longer convinced that it's just my own mental limitations that cause me to wonder whether what you're saying really squares with Reformed theology, though I'd love to hear more from @Knight as he appears to both be able to understand you and translate what you're saying into something comprehensible. But, then I remind myself that you at least affirm Muller's weaker definition of simplicity and the Nicene Creed (albeit with a muddled morass of qualifications) so... yay?
 
I'm still waiting to hear whether you think you're in line with the Westminster Confession or not!
Last thing I'll say, for sure, and then I'm out, and you can decide whether you still want to ban me, as I've more than said my piece (for those accusing me of being unclear, of course I could always be clearer than I am and I am trying my best, but the obvious reason why the likes of @Knight knows what I'm talking about is because he's clearly done some research in the relevant areas and I actually recognise him from interactions with Ed Feser on his blog if it's the same person).

Anyway, according to your completely unrealistic standard, of course I'm not in line with the WCF, because according to you confessionalism requires me to not only adopt the doctrines, but the underlying metaphysics of the Divines as they formulated such doctrines. This is a ridiculous standard and would probably disqualify half the board, many of whom probably have no interest in philosophy. You are requiring that people subscribe to Aristotelian metaphysics which is foreign to most people today. This seems to me to be the kind of poison the likes of Luther and later Owen was warning against.

Please read this, scroll down to section 4.1, 'The Relationship between Philosophy and Theology', and tell me how you are not doing exactly the thing Owens is warning against here (I would link to the original work itself but don't have access):


I remember being quite disturbed as a Christian Platonist/Thomist reading that and quickly moved on. The attempts to explain it away are unconvincing to say the least.

To take one clear cut example, you're forcing me to adopt the same metaphysical view on 'parts' that people in the 1600s did. If you care, read the standard contemporary book on the topic, Peter Simons' Parts, and/or the free to read Stanford article on mereology (study of parts) if you want to see just how much the metaphysics has changed. Obviously being contemporary doesn't equate to being correct, but neither does being antiquated either.

What this comes down to is that you are putting an unnecessary yoke on people. You don't need Plato/Aristotle/Aquinas to know Christ (says probably one of the few people here who actually teaches/does research in philosophy at university level).

Edit: Just to be absolutely clear, because I don't want it to come across that way at all, I don't say that last line to blow my own trumpet, but to emphasize that the main culprits I see pushing this kind of nonsense (like 'No Plato, no Scripture') are theologians, not philosophers.
 
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So as not to give the appearance of trying to cover my tracks in an unseemly way, I deleted my reply to the above post as, upon reflection, it did not seem to be helpful, conciliatory, or reflective of sober maturity on my part.
 
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