The "Great Tradition" and Post Reformation Orthodoxy

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Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
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I've been trying to figure out how to pose this issue and found the conclusion of PRRD 1 by Muller to be the best way to express it (pasted below).

We keep hearing about the "Great Tradition" as if there is a body of theology from Thomas or others that is universally acknowledged by all Christians. The problem I've noticed is that there is no definition of terms or an acknowledgment of how the theological method was eclectically used by the Protestant Scholastics. While I acknowledge that certain theological ideas were not really changed and carried over, it is important to note that the Protestant Scholastics developed theology in a decidedly different way than Medieval Scholasticism.

I think that to be theologically honest, charges that Churchmen are departing from orthodoxy ought to be centered less on whether they disagree with Aquinas or medieval theology as a whole or whether or not their theological method or conclusions cannot be found to correspond to any of the Reformed Orthodox streams of theological method and conclusions.

I would almost wish that there was some sort of fancy diagram that showed how various theological building blocks that included things like Thomas, Scotus, Ockham, Descartes, and others, were both leveraged and modified.

Right now, however, it seems that many who appeal to the "Great Tradition" are merely pointing to Thomas, and they seem completely unaware of post-Reformation orthodoxy itself. Isn't our "Great Tradition" distinctly Protestant?

9.4 Conclusions

With the conclusion of the discussion of the principia theologiae, we come not only to the end of the orthodox prolegomena but to the point at which we can survey the principles and presuppositions of Reformed orthodox system and make some judgments concerning the character of Protestant scholasticism. Of course, we are not in a position to make claims concerning the entire structure and organization of all orthodox systems, although some general remarks are surely in order on the basis of the intentions and methods argued in the prolegomena. Nor are we in a position to assess the contents of individual loci in the system beyond the prolegomena. Such issues await the concluding sections of subsequent parts of this study. Instead, we can assess the way in which the prolegomena point toward the system and define its method, its contents, and the relationships between its loci. We are entitled to assume that the prolegomena are genuine and that what they indicate to be the chief concerns of system are indeed the basic issues, principles, and structures of the system in all of its loci.

As argued in the introduction and illustrated by the discussions of natural theology, of the use of reason and philosophy, and of the principium cognoscendi theologiae, the Reformed orthodox system was hardly rationalistic, nor was it metaphysically inclined in any strict sense of the term. There are, of course, nominally meta-physical issues that belong to theology, given its proper object, God. And there are also significant relationships between the doctrine of God and the philosophical models used by theologians. Nonetheless, the rules of theological discourse set forth in the Reformed orthodox prolegomena carefully define and restrict the place of reason and philosophy to the end that the rational metaphysics of the day did not dictate the content of the doctrine. The large majority of the Reformed orthodox held to a version of the highly modified Christian Aristotelianism inherited from the medieval doctors and subjected to further modification and critique during the Renaissance and Reformation. We have noted the modifications brought about by medieval adjustment of Aristotelianism to various Platonic themes found in the fathers and to Augustinian models, by developments in Renaissance logic and rhetoric, notably through the work of Agricola and Ramus, and by the resurgence of interest in a variety of other ancient philosophies during the Renaissance. What is more, the critical but highly positive relationship to a Christian Aristotelianism provided by Aquinas and other exponents of the medieval via antiqua was also modified by Scotist and nominalist critiques that played over into the Reformation in several of its most significant teachers and which were mediated to their successors, the Protestant orthodox. The result was a highly eclectic appropriation of philosophy accompanied by a restriction of its positive use in theology. By way of example, the standard characterizations of the genus of theology as scientia or sapientia by the Reformed orthodox do not fit into a strictly Aristotelian pattern of definition.

In addition, the scholastic view of the object of theology—God as revealed, the primary object; and all the works of God, the secondary object—together with the locus method of exposition by topic, the scholastic approach to the division and definition of topics, and the discussion of Scripture as principium cognoscendi, points toward a concern for elaborating each and every topic of Christian theology on its own terms. Apart from the doctrines of Scripture and God, the orthodox system allows no principia or monistic organizing principles. Combined with the locus method, according to which the topics of theology were drawn out of an exegetical and traditionary exercise and then arranged in a suitable pattern or methodus, this understanding of principia stood in the way of any single philosophical principle or any individual theological doctrine becoming the unifying principle of the Reformed orthodox theology.

Beyond these largely negative conclusions that define the phenomenon of Protestant scholasticism over against several erroneous but, unfortunately, frequently reiterated characterizations, we can also provide a positive description of the Protestant scholastic system, both in terms of its development and in terms of its final form. In its method, the Protestant scholastic system depended upon the traditional scholastic pattern of the establishment of topics by careful division of the subject, the definition of topics through disputation with adversaries—the quaestio—and, finally, the elaboration of conclusions through the use of logical and rhetorical tools. This concentration on the parts of the whole, together with the organization of system by loci militated against the establishment of synthetic unity and aided the development of a system characterized by exhaustive, comprehensive treatment of all topics and by analytic rigor.

For overarching organization of system, the Reformed orthodox relied on teleological and historical issues. Typically, they move from the statement of principia, through creation, fall, and redemption, to the last things with an emphasis on the covenant as the historical or economical form of the divine work of salvation. Apart from this patterning, however, we find virtually no interest in deducing one doctrine from another but, instead, a desire to place exegetically established doctrinal loci at their proper points along the historical-teleological line of the system. In each locus, moreover, we can expect the methodological and epistemological definitions of theologia nostra, its limits, its genus, its object, the extent of its use of philosophy and reason, to establish the boundaries of argument, just as the principia, Scripture and God, limit and define what can be known and said about each aspect of the divine work.

These stylistic, methodological and architectonic interests of the Protestant orthodox did, of course, mark a major alteration of attitude and approach from the systematic essays of the first and second generation Reformers. In its fully scholastic and disputative forms, theology is now seldom discursive, and the catechetical models of the sixteenth century have been superceded by the more synthetic or a priori model of scholastic system. The style of the scholastic systems is propositional and the argumentation is rigorous. Where Calvin and his contemporaries had been content with more discursive forms and, as often noted, with the more rhetorical enthymeme, the orthodox tend to state their premises precisely and, when argument and conclusions are called for, in full syllogistic form. If the systems are not rationalist in their presuppositions, they are rational in form and in argument.

It is important, however, to note two qualifications of this stylistic point. First, the neat distinction that is sometimes posed between a Reformation-era humanistic model that argues in the form of enthymemes and a seventeenth-century scholastic approach that uses syllogisms cannot be sustained.162 In the first place, the enthymeme, albeit more suitable for high rhetoric than a full syllogism, is in fact a form of the syllogism, must be constructed properly, and—if stated poorly—can be just as fatal to a rhetorical argument as a defective syllogism would be to a demonstrative argument. It is also the case that humanist rhetorical manuals consistently discuss the enthymeme as a subcategory of the syllogism—the humanists did not ignore syllogisms! And, in addition, since the choice of an enthymeme over a syllogism, or vice versa, is quite genre specific, the one belonging to rhetorical persuasion, the other to logical demonstration, sixteenth and seventeenth-century authors would not gravitate definitively toward the one or the other but rather choose the syllogism for strictly “scholastic,” i.e., academic and demonstrative use and the enthymeme for use in oratory.163 Second, given the relationship between these logical forms and the genres of theological exposition, the contrast between the rhetorical discourse of the Reformers and the scholastic disputations of the Reformed orthodox is limited to the contrast between the doctrinal works of the Reformers taken in general and the full scholastic systems of the orthodox as a particular form of exposition. As noted previously, not all the writings of the Reformed orthodox take the scholastic approach.

Beyond this, it is also fairly clear from the prolegomena that the Reformed orthodox system is primarily a soteriological system, rather than a speculative, philosophical or metaphysical one. We recognize this: (1) from the definition of our theology as a theology in via, searching out its salvation between fall and eschaton; (2) from the limits placed on natural theology; (3) from the redefinition of a natural theology of the regenerate as belonging to Christian praise rather than to “fundamental theology,” as it were; (4) from the emphasis on the object of theology as God revealed and covenanted in Christ; and (5) from the stress upon the character of theology as theoretical-practical with the emphasis upon praxis. A system with presuppositions such as these would only with great difficulty enter the realm of speculative rationalism and, then, only to its ultimate destruction. The tendency of these presuppositions, spelled out in the system as a whole, was toward the establishment of a system scholastic in form and method but essentially in continuity with the teachings of the Reformers.

In his study of “Dogma in Protestant Scholasticism,” R. S. Franks argued cogently that “in systematizing and working out the practical doctrines of the Reformation, the seventeenth-century Scholasticism … preserved faithfully the central affirmations of the reformers.”164 Franks argues continuity with the theology of the Reformation on the issues of grace, faith, justification, and church and legitimate development from the Reformers’ pronouncement of sola Scriptura to the orthodox theologians’ doctrine of Scripture. His perspective on the Protestant scholastic use of philosophy is also worthy of note:

The philosophical element in the new Scholasticism, viz. the doctrines of God and the world, was practically taken over bodily from mediaevalism, and in reality presents no new growth when compared with its predecessor. The bold speculative outlook of the Middle Ages is lost. There is no longer the same independent interest in the philosophical problems of epistemology and metaphysics in their religious application. We have instead merely a statement of what may be called in modern phrase “the approved results” of the earlier scholastic investigations.165

Our examination of the Reformed orthodox prolegomena has substantiated the main points of Franks’ perspective and, in addition, permits some refinement of his generalization concerning the Protestant use of medieval scholastic philosophy. While it is quite correct that the Protestant orthodox borrow from the medieval scholastics and manifest little or no “independent interest in the philosophical problems of epistemology and metaphysics” in their relation to theology, it is also quite clear that the borrowing was hardly uncritical and, in addition, that the borrowing belonged to a larger framework of late Renaissance use and reappraisal of traditional philosophy, logic, and rhetoric. The Protestant scholastics were not “boldly speculative” in these areas because they had learned well at the hands of the Reformers—their borrowings reflect a wariness of excessive rationalism and excessive speculation. Indeed, the several places where we have noted a strong kinship between the Protestant scholastic and medieval scholastic systems, the Protestants seem to be treading a carefully marked path of Augustinianism and modified forms of Thomism and Scotism.

In brief, we found some genuine kinship with Henry of Ghent on the issue of causes of theology, with Giles of Rome and Gregory of Rimini together with Henry of Ghent on the object of theology, with Thomas of Strasbourg on the speculative-practical balance of theology, and with Duns Scotus on the overarching issue of the relationship of God’s self-knowledge (archetypal theology) to our theology. Henry of Ghent and Giles of Rome represent a cautiously modified Thomism inasmuch as they attempt to synthesize the tradition of Augustinian theology with Aristotelian philosophy but attend closely to the dangers of such a synthesis. Giles, together with Gregory of Rimini and Thomas of Strasbourg, represents the Augustinianism of the Order of Saint Augustine, a branch of which would produce Staupitz and Luther and, later on, Peter Martyr Vermigli and Jerome Zanchi. Scotus’ perspective on theology, moreover, represents an Augustinian vision of divine transcendence in union with a critical perspective on the limits of human reason over against the more optimistic synthesis proposed by Thomas Aquinas. In each case, the Reformed scholastics seek out a position more critical of the powers of human reason and more traditionally Augustinian than that of Aquinas, without, however, moving over into a fully nominalistic perspective. The scholasticism they chose, as the “approved results” of earlier investigations was the scholasticism most attuned to the theology of the Reformers.

Beyond this critical appropriation, moreover, there are two other issues that modify Franks’ conclusion. On the one hand, there was an increasing encounter of the Protestant orthodox with the new philosophical movements of the seventeenth century. The critical reappropriation, via late the Renaissance recovery and reassessment of classical and medieval models, also involved reaction to, limited appropriation of, and adaptation of arguments from contemporary philosophy, including the thought of Zabarella, Suarez, and, in the course of the seventeenth century Descartes and various Cartesians. On the other hand, underlying the issues of the late Renaissance recovery and reappraisal of past philosophies, of Protestant orthodox reception of these late Renaissance efforts, and of the significant changes in style, method, and use of languages on the part of the renewed “scholasticism” of the late sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, were the fundamental ties between the developing Protestant theology and humanism. Seventeenth-century scholasticism itself was in part a product of Renaissance humanism, just as, more broadly, the academic ethos and setting of the seventeenth-century academy and university was a product of Renaissance and Reformation-era models.

In effect, the process of development that we have just traced in the prolegomena represents the attempt of succeeding generations of Protestants to come to terms with the establishment of the great sixteenth-century protest as a church in its own right and with the need of that new ecclesiastical establishment to be orthodox and, indeed, “catholic” in the broadest sense of the term. The establishment of orthodoxy or “right teaching” through scholastic method and the establishment of ties to the tradition through recourse to patristic and medieval sources manifest a successful process of institutionalization and catholicization. To fault the Protestant scholastics for producing an all-encompassing dogmatic system of right teaching and thereby “domesticating” the dynamic theology of the Reformation is, in fact, to fault Protestantism for its success in surviving as a church. Protestant orthodox theology is different from the theology of the Reformation—more so in form than in substance—but it is this very difference that marks its historical and doctrinal importance in the life of the Protestant churches.



162 Contra the point made in Quirinus Breen, “John Calvin and the Rhetorical Tradition,” in Christianity and Humanism, pp. 111, 122–24 and duplicated in McGrath, “Reformation to Enlightenment,” pp. 126–127.
163 See the more extended discussion of this issue in Muller, Unaccommodated Calvin, pp. 110–111.
164 R. S. Franks, “Dogma in Protestant Scholasticism,” in Dogma in History and Thought (London: Nisbet, 1929), p. 117.
165 Franks, “Dogma in Protestant Scholasticism,” p. 115.
 
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I will say from the perspective of someone who is largely an outsider to these debates, some (though certainly not all) of the Great Tradition advocates can feel as if they've been a little too taken with the aesthetic of medieval Catholicism and a little too quick to pronounce "heretic" on some men without really without grounding any of their claims in a distinctly Protestant understanding or development of the doctrines they are dealing with.

All that to say, I think you are on to something important.
 
I will say from the perspective of someone who is largely an outsider to these debates, some (though certainly not all) of the Great Tradition advocates can feel as if they've been a little too taken with the aesthetic of medieval Catholicism and a little too quick to pronounce "heretic" on some men without really without grounding any of their claims in a distinctly Protestant understanding or development of the doctrines they are dealing with.

All that to say, I think you are on to something important.
We only say heretic when they promote ESS or deny divine simplicity. Some deny inseparable operations, and that is a huge problem, but I haven't said heretic on that.

As to aesthetics, I actually like the "boomer" style church auditorium.
 
I did a post glossing the Great Tradition here. It ended being a dumpster fire. Still, I did point out the shades of nuance and where even medievals and fathers wouldn't have agreed with Thomas.
 
Granted, the size is extreme, but if the point of church is to sing, hear a sermon, and take the Lord's supper, then this facilitates it nicely.
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I've been trying to figure out how to pose this issue and found the conclusion of PRRD 1 by Muller to be the best way to express it (pasted below).

We keep hearing about the "Great Tradition" as if there is a body of theology from Thomas or others that is universally acknowledged by all Christians. The problem I've noticed is that there is no definition of terms or an acknowledgment of how the theological method was eclectically used by the Protestant Scholastics. While I acknowledge that certain theological ideas were not really changed and carried over, it is important to note that the Protestant Scholastics developed theology in a decidedly different way than Medieval Scholasticism.

I think that to be theologically honest, charges that Churchmen are departing from orthodoxy ought to be centered less on whether they disagree with Aquinas or medieval theology as a whole or whether or not their theological method or conclusions cannot be found to correspond to any of the Reformed Orthodox streams of theological method and conclusions.

I would almost wish that there was some sort of fancy diagram that showed how various theological building blocks that included things like Thomas, Scotus, Ockham, Descartes, and others, were both leveraged and modified.

Right now, however, it seems that many who appeal to the "Great Tradition" are merely pointing to Thomas, and they seem completely unaware of post-Reformation orthodoxy itself. Isn't our "Great Tradition" distinctly Protestant?
A distinction between the so-called “Great Tradition” and RC doctrine of Sacred Tradition is important.
 
A distinction between the so-called “Great Tradition” and RC doctrine of Sacred Tradition is important.
Exactly. The "Great Tradition" as Carter and Barrett use the term is more or less what happened when the church took parts of late Hellenic culture, from which they generated key metaphysical doctrines: divine simplicity, creation ex nihilo, and aseity. It is no surprise that those who attack the Great Tradition often play fast and loose with divine simplicity.
 
I just don’t know why we need to call historical theology the Great Tradition. It is right up there with Mere Christianity in usefulness. it may serve as a place to start but not finish.
 
I just don’t know why we need to call historical theology the Great Tradition. It is right up there with Mere Christianity in usefulness. it may serve as a place to start but not finish.
I wouldn't call historical theology as such the Great Tradition. The Great Tradition, as Carter and Barrett use it, reflects a loosely Platonic view of universals as it was received by the Nicene Church. The further one gets in time from the Nicene church the less specific the Tradition is. For example, both Thomas and Plato believed in universals, but they disagreed where to place them. Thomas believes in a soul, but it is more the form of the body than a separate substance.
 
Divine simplicity, at least as explicated by Aquinas and contemporary Thomists, is almost certainly false, so I think we need to be careful suggesting anyone denying it is a heretic. Aside from some having a legitimate inconsistency that can be shown formally (you either give up God’s freedom or God’s simplicity), there’s no biblical basis for it. There’s a reason why biblical scholars raise an eyebrow at the doctrine. At which point I began to ask myself why I felt committed to a doctrine I knew was extremely hard to defend. Genuinely I believe the conclusions one is forced to draw from a strong view of simplicity are heretical. Or you just flip the mystery card on a doctrine that is supposed to explain other difficult doctrines. It’s all over the place and there’s a good reason why Thomistic leaning philosophers such as Brian Leftow have rejected it.

The solution is also quite simple (excuse the pun) - reject the underlying metaphysically rich worldview of ‘The Great Tradition’. I have no reason to take a metaphysically rich view of properties, universals, abstract objects, and so on. There’s no ‘property’ which God instantiates. We can truly say God is good without being committed to the reality of some entity called ‘goodness’. This is the approach William Lane Craig takes in his work God Over All. I also think this is basically what Luther was raging against when he decried Aristotle and those who were reading foreign philosophical ideas back into Scripture.

If you want to hold to simplicity, well, for a start the Nicene Fathers would have had a much more basic view of simplicity than later Thomists, so one can camp there without adding the extra details which create all the problems. Then there’s people like Oliver Crisp trying to find a ‘parsimonious model’ of simplicity.
 
I also see some real problems arising from the ultra pro-Thomist crowd. Case in point - Ryan Hurd.


He’s doing the same sort of thing here in rejecting later Reformed writers who conflict with the Fathers/mediaevals. ‘The Fathers rejected God’s wrath because they had a stoic understanding of wrath and thought that made God like Satan’. It never seems to occur to him that the obvious problem here is the Fathers who were reading Stoic understandings of wrath back into Scripture. Why would I agree with them here?
 
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If you want to hold to simplicity
The confessions that define the boundaries for membership on the board hold to simplicity.

Belgic Confession, Article 1
Westminster Confession of Faith, II.1

This is not simply a matter of some slight personal preference.
 
The confessions that define the boundaries for membership on the board hold to simplicity.

Belgic Confession, Article 1
Westminster Confession of Faith, II.1

This is not simply a matter of some slight personal preference.

To be fair, I think Ulster Fry has been rather clear that it is primarily the Thomistic version of divine simplicity with which he has concerns. I share those concerns, discussed recently in this thread.

On the other hand, since Ulster Fry mentioned him, I think W. L. Craig's metaphysic is problematic (link).

Personally, I affirm that God is not composed of parts. How that cashes out is not so easy to articulate.
 
Divine simplicity, at least as explicated by Aquinas and contemporary Thomists, is almost certainly false, so I think we need to be careful suggesting anyone denying it is a heretic. Aside from some having a legitimate inconsistency that can be shown formally (you either give up God’s freedom or God’s simplicity), there’s no biblical basis for it. There’s a reason why biblical scholars raise an eyebrow at the doctrine. At which point I began to ask myself why I felt committed to a doctrine I knew was extremely hard to defend. Genuinely I believe the conclusions one is forced to draw from a strong view of simplicity are heretical. Or you just flip the mystery card on a doctrine that is supposed to explain other difficult doctrines. It’s all over the place and there’s a good reason why Thomistic leaning philosophers such as Brian Leftow have rejected it.

The solution is also quite simple (excuse the pun) - reject the underlying metaphysically rich worldview of ‘The Great Tradition’. I have no reason to take a metaphysically rich view of properties, universals, abstract objects, and so on. There’s no ‘property’ which God instantiates. We can truly say God is good without being committed to the reality of some entity called ‘goodness’. This is the approach William Lane Craig takes in his work God Over All. I also think this is basically what Luther was raging against when he decried Aristotle and those who were reading foreign philosophical ideas back into Scripture.

If you want to hold to simplicity, well, for a start the Nicene Fathers would have had a much more basic view of simplicity than later Thomists, so one can camp there without adding the extra details which create all the problems. Then there’s people like Oliver Crisp trying to find a ‘parsimonious model’ of simplicity.
This "inconsistency" is addressed by every writer on divine simplicity. Van Mastricht, Turretin, Walaeus, etc. In short, any definition of divine freedom that says that his will is mutable is false. Which any Bible believing Christian should be able to get on board with, because Scripture says "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent," and "with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
Regarding whether there is a biblical basis for simplicity, 2 Cor. 1:12 mentions "the simplicity of God," with the same Greek term as is used in Aristotle for simplicity / non-composition. Now, you might point out that some translations translate it differently, which is true, but what the Greek says matters a lot more than how the ESV or NIV interprets it. Zanchi goes so far as to use the verse as a proof-text for simplicity.
But even if that verse didn't exist, the attributes and names of God are identified with his essence repeatedly, which is what you are calling "Thomist simplicity." They are never explained as mere parts of his essence.
"God is love", 1 Jn. 4:8
God is truth, John 14:6
God is life, John 14:6
"God is light", 1 Jn. 1:5
God is that he is, Exodus 3:14
"God is a consuming fire," Hebrews 12:29
 
This "inconsistency" is addressed by every writer on divine simplicity. Van Mastricht, Turretin, Walaeus, etc. In short, any definition of divine freedom that says that his will is mutable is false. Which any Bible believing Christian should be able to get on board with, because Scripture says "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent," and "with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
Regarding whether there is a biblical basis for simplicity, 2 Cor. 1:12 mentions "the simplicity of God," with the same Greek term as is used in Aristotle for simplicity / non-composition. Now, you might point out that some translations translate it differently, which is true, but what the Greek says matters a lot more than how the ESV or NIV interprets it. Zanchi goes so far as to use the verse as a proof-text for simplicity.
But even if that verse didn't exist, the attributes and names of God are identified with his essence repeatedly, which is what you are calling "Thomist simplicity." They are never explained as mere parts of his essence.
"God is love", 1 Jn. 4:8
God is truth, John 14:6
God is life, John 14:6
"God is light", 1 Jn. 1:5
God is that he is, Exodus 3:14
"God is a consuming fire," Hebrews 12:29

Would you agree with Dolezal that "creatorhood belongs to God in His eternal essence" (All That Is In God, pg. 98)?
 
This "inconsistency" is addressed by every writer on divine simplicity. Van Mastricht, Turretin, Walaeus, etc. In short, any definition of divine freedom that says that his will is mutable is false. Which any Bible believing Christian should be able to get on board with, because Scripture says "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent," and "with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
Regarding whether there is a biblical basis for simplicity, 2 Cor. 1:12 mentions "the simplicity of God," with the same Greek term as is used in Aristotle for simplicity / non-composition. Now, you might point out that some translations translate it differently, which is true, but what the Greek says matters a lot more than how the ESV or NIV interprets it. Zanchi goes so far as to use the verse as a proof-text for simplicity.
But even if that verse didn't exist, the attributes and names of God are identified with his essence repeatedly, which is what you are calling "Thomist simplicity." They are never explained as mere parts of his essence.
"God is love", 1 Jn. 4:8
God is truth, John 14:6
God is life, John 14:6
"God is light", 1 Jn. 1:5
God is that he is, Exodus 3:14
"God is a consuming fire," Hebrews 12:29
Not one of them deal with modality sufficiently, because modality wasn’t a fully developed logic until the late twentieth century.

As such, whether God’s will is mutable misses the point. The point is whether it is necessary that God wills what He wills. If yes, then you get necessitarianism and what I have for breakfast this morning is as modally necessary as God (and everything else). If not, then God’s will is contingent (could have been otherwise), but then God’s existence (which we agree is necessary) cannot be identical to His will (if not necessary).

The other way out is to say God’s will is necessary but not the effects. The Thomist idea is that God wills Himself. But then the effects (creation) seems to be a random byproduct of God’s willing Himself. The effects are contingent (could have been otherwise) but were not directly willed by God. We lose any sense of intentionality, whether we’re using it analogously or otherwise.

Pointing to earlier giants in theology won’t cut it, as I found out the hard way. This is a live and serious issue in contemporary analytic theology/philosophy of religion, one which honest Thomists are well aware of and currently lack a good response to. I don’t think there is one. I think the consistent conclusion is necessitarianism (which Edwards was fine with). Here’s a good blog post by a Thomist who recognises the issue (author of the DDS article on the Stanford encyclopaedia of philosophy: https://maverickphilosopher.typepad...ne-is-walking-is-he-necessarily-walking-.html

As for the Bible verses you quote, not one of them entails simplicity.

Can I just say, as one trained by Reformed Thomists at undergraduate level and who defended simplicity for my Masters thesis this has been a very difficult transition for me, but I cannot hold to a view I am fairly convinced cannot be true.
 
The confessions that define the boundaries for membership on the board hold to simplicity.

Belgic Confession, Article 1
Westminster Confession of Faith, II.1

This is not simply a matter of some slight personal preference.
‘Without body, parts, or passions’ is the shorthand in the major Protestant confessions.

I do hold to this. But I don’t need DDS as I’ve described above to do it.

As you’ve brought it up, could you define clearly what ‘parts’ means here?
 
To be fair, I think Ulster Fry has been rather clear that it is primarily the Thomistic version of divine simplicity with which he has concerns. I share those concerns, discussed recently in this thread.

On the other hand, since Ulster Fry mentioned him, I think W. L. Craig's metaphysic is problematic (link).

Personally, I affirm that God is not composed of parts. How that cashes out is not so easy to articulate.
Right, this is exactly right (for example, although I haven’t studied it in detail, I could go with Duns Scotus if he alleviates the problems I mention, as he presents a different model).

As for the anti-realism stuff, again I don’t think you can even get Thomistic DDS without it. Jeff Brower (the guy who uses truth-maker theory to defend DDS which Dolezal utilises in his works) has written a paper on this, even ruling out divine conceptualism.

Historic nominalism is different from the plethora of contemporary anti-realist views. The basic motto is not to read ontology off of language.
 
Not one of them deal with modality sufficiently, because modality wasn’t a fully developed logic until the late twentieth century.

As such, whether God’s will is mutable misses the point. The point is whether it is necessary that God wills what He wills. If yes, then you get necessitarianism and what I have for breakfast this morning is as modally necessary as God (and everything else). If not, then God’s will is contingent (could have been otherwise), but then God’s existence (which we agree is necessary) cannot be identical to His will (if not necessary).

The other way out is to say God’s will is necessary but not the effects. The Thomist idea is that God wills Himself. But then the effects (creation) seems to be a random byproduct of God’s willing Himself. The effects are contingent (could have been otherwise) but were not directly willed by God. We lose any sense of intentionality, whether we’re using it analogously or otherwise.

Pointing to earlier giants in theology won’t cut it, as I found out the hard way. This is a live and serious issue in contemporary analytic theology/philosophy of religion, one which honest Thomists are well aware of and currently lack a good response to. I don’t think there is one. I think the consistent conclusion is necessitarianism (which Edwards was fine with). Here’s a good blog post by a Thomist who recognises the issue (author of the DDS article on the Stanford encyclopaedia of philosophy: https://maverickphilosopher.typepad...ne-is-walking-is-he-necessarily-walking-.html

As for the Bible verses you quote, not one of them entails simplicity.

Can I just say, as one trained by Reformed Thomists at undergraduate level and who defended simplicity for my Masters thesis this has been a very difficult transition for me, but I cannot hold to a view I am fairly convinced cannot be true.
You're contradicting yourself. First you say that none of them address modality and modal collapse, and they could not, because it wasn't understood until the 20th century.
Then you say Edwards came to a consistent solution.
Which is it?
I repeat, ALL of them addressed the issue of simplicity as it relates to necessity.
You say that if God is simple, what you ate for breakfast this morning becomes necessary. But of course it was necessary according to God's decree. Reformed Christians believe that God has unchangeably decreed whatsoever comes to pass.
"Q. 7. What are the decrees of God?
A. The decrees of God are his eternal purpose, according to the counsel of his will, whereby, for his own glory, he hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass."

As for whether the verses entail simplicity, you seem to be dismissing them with handwaving. One explicitly calls God "simple." Moreover, it's a logical contradiction to say that God is his love, light, truth, etc, but that he's not simple.
 
You're contradicting yourself. First you say that none of them address modality and modal collapse, and they could not, because it wasn't understood until the 20th century.
Then you say Edwards came to a consistent solution.
Which is it?
I repeat, ALL of them addressed the issue of simplicity as it relates to necessity.
You say that if God is simple, what you ate for breakfast this morning becomes necessary. But of course it was necessary according to God's decree. Reformed Christians believe that God has unchangeably decreed whatsoever comes to pass.
"Q. 7. What are the decrees of God?
A. The decrees of God are his eternal purpose, according to the counsel of his will, whereby, for his own glory, he hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass."

As for whether the verses entail simplicity, you seem to be dismissing them with handwaving. One explicitly calls God "simple." Moreover, it's a logical contradiction to say that God is his love, light, truth, etc, but that he's not simple.
I said that modal logic wasn't developed until the second half of the twentieth century. This is just a matter of historical fact. I also did not say that they didn't address modality. I said that they didn't address modality sufficiently. Before accusing someone of contradicting themselves, please represent them fairly. I will try to do the same with your comments.

Read the link I sent when you are able as it explicitly deals with the fallacy I believe that you are exhibiting regarding necessity.

(1) God decrees x, therefore x happens necessarily.

That is a logical fallacy. Perhaps God could have decreed something other than x (e.g., perhaps God decrees not to create the world). I think we need to uphold that God has the freedom to create, not create, create another world other than this one, etc.

What you seem to be wanting to argue for is this:

(2) Necessarily, God decrees x. Therefore, x happens necessarily.

No fallacy here. But now God's decree and all of its contents are necessary and there is nothing contingent at all. But Reformed Orthodoxy does uphold contingency; it's all over the WCF. So if you are arguing for necessitarianism then you are at odds with the WCF.
 
Here's another not overly technical article, with all sides represented (links to the responses are on the left hand side) on the exact issue at hand which is pertinent to DDS. Ed Feser gives one of the responses. If you disagree with Mullins you have to state which premise is at fault and why.


For those who have been following this debate, this post was from 2019. I know there's been further development since then, particularly in the discussion between Christopher Tomaszewski and Mullins. However, if I am being intellectually honest, I agree with Mullins and Craig when they say the Thomistic responses to these arguments are becoming more and more desperate. That doesn't mean someone won't find a solution but I think there's a reason why everyone from Dolezal to Vallicella ends up playing the mystery card, as they recognise a legitimate problem here that can't be made to disappear with scare quotes.
 
Oh and one last thing. Leithart is one of the authors writing a response there. Here's his latest regarding the issue:


I hope to read his book Creator at some stage, but it's quite clear he also agrees that Thomas Aquinas' account of simplicity (this is what I've intended by the shorthand 'Thomistic simplicity') fails.
 
As for whether the verses entail simplicity, you seem to be dismissing them with handwaving. One explicitly calls God "simple." Moreover, it's a logical contradiction to say that God is his love, light, truth, etc, but that he's not simple.
Sorry, this is definitely my last post for now, but I should also deal with this. Sure, it's a logical contradiction if I am committed to such abstract entities as 'love', 'light', 'truth', etc which God instantiates and is identical to. But I do not believe there are such abstract entities and I am not committed to such metaphysical extravagance, nor do I think the Bible commits me to believe in such things. There are no abstract entities/objects of which God is composed.

The existence of abstract objects is, again, a live debate in contemporary analytic philosophy with various positions. No handwaving. I genuinely believe the Bible and the Nicene Creed commits me to the existence of concrete entities, both material and immaterial, visible and invisible, and one Creator who made it all. That's it. No Platonic heaven or whatever else.
 
Sorry, this is definitely my last post for now, but I should also deal with this. Sure, it's a logical contradiction if I am committed to such abstract entities as 'love', 'light', 'truth', etc which God instantiates and is identical to. But I do not believe there are such abstract entities and I am not committed to such metaphysical extravagance, nor do I think the Bible commits me to believe in such things. There are no abstract entities/objects of which God is composed.

The existence of abstract objects is, again, a live debate in contemporary analytic philosophy with various positions. No handwaving. I genuinely believe the Bible and the Nicene Creed commits me to the existence of concrete entities, both material and immaterial, visible and invisible, and one Creator who made it all. That's it. No Platonic heaven or whatever else.
I haven't said anything about "abstract entities," "Platonic heavens," or anything of the sort.
That language is contains a contradiction in terms. By definition, individual entities are not abstract. Abstraction is the process of forming a mental image, species, or genus from sensory data. A species or genus is by definition an abstraction and not a real entity.
Nor have I said God is made up of abstract properties or species as if they were parts. That is exactly what I'm saying is not the case. You appear to have completely missed my point.
Nor have you addressed that Paul explicitly mentions "the simplicity of God." That would be a really strange manner of speaking if God isn't simple.
The Belgic Confession as well calls God "simple," which you glossed over in your response to Ruben.

Regarding the historical sources, I don't know if you've read them, but they all say things come to pass by necessity, according to God's immutable decree.

The kind of freedom God has is freedom from external compulsion, not mutability to alter his decree. The Scripture explicitly states God cannot alter his decree.
"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,"
"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."
"For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass;"
"According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:"
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

Of course God could have decreed differently, had he so willed, but his will is immutable and could not have been different. Note the larger catechism teaches God's decree is "unchangeable... from all eternity":
"Q. 12. What are the decrees of God?
A. God’s decrees are the wise, free, and holy acts of the counsel of his will, whereby, from all eternity, he hath, for his own glory, unchangeably foreordained whatsoever comes to pass in time, especially concerning angels and men."
 
Here's another not overly technical article, with all sides represented (links to the responses are on the left hand side) on the exact issue at hand which is pertinent to DDS. Ed Feser gives one of the responses. If you disagree with Mullins you have to state which premise is at fault and why.


I'm quoting this portion as it seems to illustrate the original post that dealt with the prolegomena summary in the original post.

I have to say, upfront, that I'm not very good at all these philosophical distinctions. I don't feel qualified to deal with all the historical points or even to engage in fine points of philosophical argument.

It does seem to me, however, that the interlocutors don't really come out and say it, but it's clear that some are operating with completely different underlying assumptions.

If I had to pick my choice in the discussion, it would be Apophaticism and Divine Simplicity. Why? It seems to me to correspond to the schools of thought that distinguish between archetypal and ectypal theology. It seems to me that Mullins denies that there is a distinction here. That is a "first principle" kind of thing to me.
I'm not saying that Mullin's method is unknown in the Reformed orthodox era, but it seems that the Confessions at least do deal with the idea that man has no fruition in theology except by Divine condescension and to say that we cannot proceed theologically without affirming the "essential" unknowability of God is completely different than what our own Confessions confess. By "essentially unknowable," the point is that we can only apprehend God, which He reveals to us as creatures. We know only in part, but the whole "God as He is in Himself" is beyond all creaturely comprehension.

In this way, it seems that he shares with Craig an idea that our knowledge of things is univocal with God's and that it allows us to go beyond that which is revealed.

Now, I'm certain there will be some rejoinders to this that will go over my head philosophically. All I'm trying to establish in this discussion is a sort of "Reformed Orthodox" retrieval. I'm not arguing for a purely Thomistic version of a doctrine (whither simplicity or other) but to discuss whether we often tire ourselves in knots because we haven't decided what method a thinker is pursuing. One method accuses the other of resorting to mystery. One school sticks to Thomas. Other schools modify Thomas and nominalism, etc. Since not all are agreed on the place of metaphysics or the order and place of Scripture in the argument, it makes it really hard to figure out whether the accusations "stick".
 
I haven't said anything about "abstract entities," "Platonic heavens," or anything of the sort.
That language is contains a contradiction in terms. By definition, individual entities are not abstract. Abstraction is the process of forming a mental image, species, or genus from sensory data. A species or genus is by definition an abstraction and not a real entity.
Nor have I said God is made up of abstract properties or species as if they were parts. That is exactly what I'm saying is not the case. You appear to have completely missed my point.
Nor have you addressed that Paul explicitly mentions "the simplicity of God." That would be a really strange manner of speaking if God isn't simple.
The Belgic Confession as well calls God "simple," which you glossed over in your response to Ruben.

Regarding the historical sources, I don't know if you've read them, but they all say things come to pass by necessity, according to God's immutable decree.

The kind of freedom God has is freedom from external compulsion, not mutability to alter his decree. The Scripture explicitly states God cannot alter his decree.
"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,"
"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."
"For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass;"
"According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:"
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

Of course God could have decreed differently, had he so willed, but his will is immutable and could not have been different. Note the larger catechism teaches God's decree is "unchangeable... from all eternity":
"Q. 12. What are the decrees of God?
A. God’s decrees are the wise, free, and holy acts of the counsel of his will, whereby, from all eternity, he hath, for his own glory, unchangeably foreordained whatsoever comes to pass in time, especially concerning angels and men."
We’re reading past each other here Charles. I’ll try and simplify things.

First, I think you are ignorant of contemporary analytic philosophy/theology based on your comments, especially when you think there is a contradiction in the term ‘abstract entities’ (would you prefer abstract objects?) which is a genuine category in contemporary metaphysics. Your presentation a particular understanding of abstraction to which has its own problems (but could well be correct and is actually closer to what I think is correct). But really, this isn’t where the issue lies. I just wanted to address your claim. Again, feel free to define parts here, because on your view I’m struggling to see why divine simplicity is even necessary to uphold as God would be simple by virtue of not being made up of distinct parts as you acknowledge these aren’t really existing things and are just ‘abstractions’.

Second, the historical sources which you mention (I should stress that I was educated in a Reformed college and have read a lot of them, particularly Turretin) are capable of committing logical fallacies just as you are. Being historical doesn’t equate being correct. How they tried to bypass this issue was by making a distinction between hypothetical and metaphysical necessity, and again I refer you to what I linked above as to why this doesn’t work. If what is being argued is that ‘God decrees x, therefore necessarily x’ then that is fallacious. The correct view is ‘God decrees x, therefore x’. But you’ve already conceded this point, as you’ve acknowledged that God could have decreed otherwise. So if God can will otherwise (I’m not pulling a bait and switch here by now taking of will, obviously) then how can God be identical to His will? That would mean that God is God A in world w where he decrees x, and God B in world w’ where he degrees y. You claim God’s will could be otherwise, but not His existence (I would assume), but these two are identical. That’s a contradiction.

I think you are being disingenuous with the problem here. Why are the likes of Dolezal seeing a problem here that you claim doesn’t really exist? But the reality is that everyone can see it for themselves, presented formally, in the Mullins post I link to above. It is a clear problem. I’m not saying it is unsolvable (though I think it’s as close to that as it gets) but it is certainly a problem. Why pretend otherwise?
 
I'm quoting this portion as it seems to illustrate the original post that dealt with the prolegomena summary in the original post.

I have to say, upfront, that I'm not very good at all these philosophical distinctions. I don't feel qualified to deal with all the historical points or even to engage in fine points of philosophical argument.

It does seem to me, however, that the interlocutors don't really come out and say it, but it's clear that some are operating with completely different underlying assumptions.

If I had to pick my choice in the discussion, it would be Apophaticism and Divine Simplicity. Why? It seems to me to correspond to the schools of thought that distinguish between archetypal and ectypal theology. It seems to me that Mullins denies that there is a distinction here. That is a "first principle" kind of thing to me.
I'm not saying that Mullin's method is unknown in the Reformed orthodox era, but it seems that the Confessions at least do deal with the idea that man has no fruition in theology except by Divine condescension and to say that we cannot proceed theologically without affirming the "essential" unknowability of God is completely different than what our own Confessions confess. By "essentially unknowable," the point is that we can only apprehend God, which He reveals to us as creatures. We know only in part, but the whole "God as He is in Himself" is beyond all creaturely comprehension.

In this way, it seems that he shares with Craig an idea that our knowledge of things is univocal with God's and that it allows us to go beyond that which is revealed.

Now, I'm certain there will be some rejoinders to this that will go over my head philosophically. All I'm trying to establish in this discussion is a sort of "Reformed Orthodox" retrieval. I'm not arguing for a purely Thomistic version of a doctrine (whither simplicity or other) but to discuss whether we often tire ourselves in knots because we haven't decided what method a thinker is pursuing. One method accuses the other of resorting to mystery. One school sticks to Thomas. Other schools modify Thomas and nominalism, etc. Since not all are agreed on the place of metaphysics or the order and place of Scripture in the argument, it makes it really hard to figure out whether the accusations "stick".

I think the desire by some to see the Reformed orthodox tradition as Thomist goes beyond the evidence. With that said, the following seem fairly clear:
* They held to natural law and natural theology.
* They held to a form of simplicity that was stronger than what WL Craig and White would like.
* Most probably held to a form of the Beatific Vision, as opposed to a Kuyperian heaven of business meetings.
* They weren't scared of using Roman Catholic thinkers (see all the times Rutherford quotes Suarez and Bellarmine).
* They didn't hold to the transcendental argument for the existence of God. Rather, they held to the "Proofs."

Most biblicists actually see all of this, but when we do it today, we are told we are abandoning the Reformation for Thomas Aquinas.
 
I think the desire by some to see the Reformed orthodox tradition as Thomist goes beyond the evidence. With that said, the following seem fairly clear:
* They held to natural law and natural theology.
* They held to a form of simplicity that was stronger than what WL Craig and White would like.
* Most probably held to a form of the Beatific Vision, as opposed to a Kuyperian heaven of business meetings.
* They weren't scared of using Roman Catholic thinkers (see all the times Rutherford quotes Suarez and Bellarmine).
* They didn't hold to the transcendental argument for the existence of God. Rather, they held to the "Proofs."

Most biblicists actually see all of this, but when we do it today, we are told we are abandoning the Reformation for Thomas Aquinas.
I'm not sure how that interacts with my post. The OP acknowledges that there was a use of Thomas among many. My main point is that one has to be able to understand the method a person is employing, and it appears to be illustrated in the link I referred to. One author seems to imply the archetypal/ectypal distinction, while the other seems to imply it's nonsensical.
 
I'm not sure how that interacts with my post. The OP acknowledges that there was a use of Thomas among many. My main point is that one has to be able to understand the method a person is employing, and it appears to be illustrated in the link I referred to. One author seems to imply the archetypal/ectypal distinction, while the other seems to imply it's nonsensical.

My point was that their method was sometimes eclectic, as Muller points out in volume 1. They would have all agreed with Thomas, for example, that God is Pure Act. On the other hand, they would have used Scotist categories to employ the archetypal/ectypal distinction. If you are talking about the Theopolis link, none of those writers, except perhaps Lenow, are actually Reformed so I wouldn't have expected all of them to hold to the a/e distinction.
 
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