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Lynnie,Grant- OF COURSE I don't think anybody here is pro abortion. Yikes, that is not even up for discussion. I was merely referring to the juice as wine in embryonic beginning stages. Which it is! That's all. Please don't extrapolate your conclusion.
It seems to me like saying the early clump of cells isn't a baby, its just an unformed embryo, and we say no, from the moment of conception it is a baby. Well, that juice is unformed wine.
To be fair, you drew the comparison between the pro-abortion view (on embryos) and wine-only advocates not I.
Brandon it was right here that I was referring to:hmmm I didn't read him that way at all. I'm not sure it is fair.
It seems to me like saying the early clump of cells isn't a baby, its just an unformed embryo, and we say no, from the moment of conception it is a baby. Well, that juice is unformed wine.
Likening the wine only advocates (this is a confessional Board) to those who have a murderous and unbiblical view on conception and abortion is not biblical and further is an invalid emotional comparison that I hope will be reconsidered.
I am willing to apologize if my responses have been uncharitable or unfair, however I do not think they have been. Moderators are welcome to weigh in. If unfairness is decided, then I would gladly apologize and delete the accused post.Grant - thanks I sometimes look at the avatars and get mixed up who is who. My point is that the comparison didn't require the conclusion which you drew:
A careful charitable reading is owed (confessional board like you say), and it seems (to me) misconstruing of words to insist your reading was fair.
Like @Romans922 has said, a LARGE piece of this discussion is we all take the SAME bread and the SAME wine.Fair enough Grant. (with much love). For what it's worth I think one shared cup of wine is the ideal, but unity is the ideal as well - so it gets complicated. My 10 year old loves the wine, but my 12 nearly choked the first time she had it. We have an outer ring of juice, and I'm grateful for it (even if I'm encouraging her to learn to love the wine at the same time)
Fermentation begins when you crush grapes. This was by our Lord's design. Putting man-made "improvements" on an element of worship leads to the slippery road of idolatry. Our Lord picked a source that immediately began to ferment and turn into wine when you crushed it.
A careful charitable reading is owed (confessional board like you say), and it seems (to me) misconstruing of words to insist your reading was fair.
Like @Romans922 has said a LARGE piece of this discussion is we all take the SAME bread and the SAME cup.
Huh? If fermentation begins when the grapes are crushed, then the sweet juice is the beginning of fermentation. In fact, if your tiny cup of grape juice has been sitting in a back room for a couple hours since it was prepared before the church service, it undoubtedly has a few yeast cells operating in fermentation already, even if it still tastes like juice.
Sure, but I don't agree the split cup violates that principle necessarily.
Huh? If fermentation begins when the grapes are crushed, then the sweet juice is the beginning of fermentation. In fact, if your tiny cup of grape juice has been sitting in a back room for a couple hours since it was prepared before the church service, it undoubtedly has a few yeast cells operating in fermentation already, even if it still tastes like juice. To refuse to take it because it isn't wine, well, Romans 15 and it is your conscience. But it isn't a very scientific position.
Bacterial growth is exponential. A nuclear bomb goes from one atom splitting to a mushroom cloud in only 80 generations of atoms splitting. A tiny cut on your leg can go to sepsis and death in 24 hours (bacteria split in 20 minutes). My optometrist died that way, and that fast. Your own little cup of juice is already starting to ferment if exposed to air even if you don't taste it yet. This should be a non issue if you ask me. The real problem is Christians against any alcohol ever , but that's another subject.
Lynnie,
I'd encourage you to do your own research on this, if you'd like. Though from my research, speaking as factually as I can about grape juice without an opinion of it. Grape juice (as we think of it like Welch's) is a result of an invention in 1862 of pasteurization. Thomas Welch applied pasteurization to grapes (and its juice) in 1869. What pasteurization did for grapes (and its juice) was essentially not allow the fermentation process to start. Which is why if you leave today's Welch's grape juice out, it is not going to ferment.
So I believe it is one thing to talk about a grape being crushed, and a totally different thing to talk about 2019 grape juice. Grape juice as we know it today did not exist prior to 1869. [This is not to speak of whether or not we should use wine/grape juice today, just trying to stick to the facts].
I am horrified at the thought of people who refuse to take communion because it is juice. But never mind, God calls us to forbear with the conscience of others.
Split tray does not have support from the BCO or Westminster Standards. As long as that is admitted I have no quibble.
Pasteurized Grape juice, even if left out for 1/2 hour is not fermented grape juice. If it was Welch's would not have made it this long.Grant- with all due respect I was a botany major and loved mycology (fungi). They are everywhere. What matters is getting the right sort of fungus for bread or wine. But you can't avoid them and they WILL be in any food left sitting out.
Brandon,There is no tray to be found whether split or whole in the BCO, Westminster, or the Bible. That is granted. The Confession says wine and the cup, which is why I said above common cup of wine is clearly the confessional choice to promote.
The addition of Grape Juice into the shaping of The Lord's Supper in the Church was nothing more than a cultural pressure (invasion) that many gave into.
Just because it is not a fresh cultural pressure, does not make the above any less true. Modern examples are adding rock bands, changing understandings of sexuality in society. How many are willing to admit that the grape juice invasion was a cultural pressure? The addition of un-fermented grape juice certainly was not a reforming to the scriptures.
As @Pergamum stated in another thread. Here in America we really have no excuse not to be using wine.
I think the addition of grape juice shows compassion for recovering alcoholics and people with medical conditions who can't have wine. We have a greater scientific understanding of these medical issues now than past generations did. So, split-tray is a good idea.
I started out a chem major. Second year in organic I almost blew up the lab. They had to evacuate everybody. Turned out I had been given equipment with a hairline fracture and the prof told the class next day it wasnt my fault. They were all mad at me. Ptsd, ended up in botany, but I loved it.Well just know that I have never abstained on the sole fact of only grape juice being offered.
P.S. I hope I have not offended you and I have appreciated your input. My "legal age to buy alcohol" example is the best comparison I have.
P.P.S. Glad to know a fellow science major. My degree is in chemistry.
I started out a chem major. Second year in organic I almost blew up the lab. They had to evacuate everybody. Turned out I had been given equipment with a hairline fracture and the prof told the class next day it wasnt my fault. They were all mad at me. Ptsd, ended up in botany, but I loved it.
What the sign points me to helps me not to be too caught up in what the sign is made out of.