Children that have the sign of the covenant

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Please see your own confession for refutation: This passage speaks about sanctification, not justification, as the 1689 uses it in Chapter 13 on Sanctification.
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This passage outlines the basis for sanctification, justification. Therefore, it speaks to both. And, baptism is tied to the basis of our sanctification, what God did in justifying us, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:3-4).

Therefore, according to the 1689 (and the Westminster on which it is based) baptism is a precursor of both justification and sanctification, since one must needs happen before the other. Baptism does not happen because of justification or of sanctification, but stands logically prior to both since baptism is not merely the application of water by the minister in the name of the Trinity, but also the sign of the Holy Spirit's work in regeneration that may happen at the time of the baptism, before it, or after it.
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This is refuted because the basis of this argument was refuted. Baptism is tied to justification. Period.

Repentance is placed on the same plane as baptism in this passage. Further, it is right that Peter preaches this way because it was ordained by our Lord Jesus. But it does not elevate baptism to a proclamation of a person's treasuring the divine light in his affections.
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Yes, so baptism is an outward act expressing an inward reality. It is more than repentance as well, because it is done in Jesus name, not the same as the baptism done by John. It involves and outward expression of the inward reality of both repentance and faith.

If it were, do you not think that Scripture would record what each person said after they had been baptized? Do you remember the most famous saying after a baptism? The Word of God from Heaven spoke, not the person upon whom the baptism was administered. What proclamation can you say after your baptism that adds one thing to the goodness of it?
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You are misunderstanding what I am postulating. It is a proclaimation through the symbolic act, not through words.

You don't make Jesus Lord, He's Lord already. You don't crown Jesus King, He's King already. There is no proclamation from the person, there is proclamation from God. I should think that the proper proclamation of one who has just been baptized is absolute humble silence.
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We express our being humbled through baptism, resting in Christ alone for the forgiveness of our sins and for the fulfillment of all God's promises to us in Him, even eternal life. Yes, tears would be more appropriate than words. I did not mention words. In essence I said that the outward act is the proclaimation of God's personal lordship over the heart of the one who has called upon His name and is saved.

See above. He doesn't need water and a fool to proclaim anything about His Lordship.
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God doesn't need the agency of the Holy Spirit or the instrumentation of the Word either. He chooses means for His own secret purposes. We trust and obey, by His grace.

First, if we apprehend at all, it is not our words that mean anything. It is God's Word. Therefore, we should be able to find examples of this kind of proclamation in the NT. Further, we should find the apostles teaching that baptism is a proclamation of the believer. We don't find either.
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It is a proclaimation in the sense that it displays and inward reality, not by words, but by a symbolic expression of faith and repentance present in the heart.

I'm not sure what you think this proves, but it says nothing about our proclamation in baptism, but everything about God's proclamation to us.
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As we are baptised into Christ, we outwardly express the inward reality of our putting on Christ through faith and repentance that He gives to us. In so doing, we treasure Christ in baptism.

This is only true as the Holy Spirit works. But as we know, baptism is a sign or symbol of what happens, not the actual thing. It is a shadow of a reality. We can't see what happens in baptism. And everywhere the apostle teaches, he knows this. Only those who have been truly baptized by the Holy Spirit in the realm we can't see, have put on Christ. The water is not magic, nor the minister, nor the words, nor the participant. The Holy Spirit makes this effectual to us, and so, only by the Spirit do we put on Christ, not by the symbolic water. Do you see the difference. You're making much too much of the outward sign.
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Yes, and only those who have inwardly put on Christ by the Spirit through faith are justified. Baptism by water is an outward expression, proclaimation, and sign of this inward reality.

There is no inference that can be drawn anywhere in Scripture that says that water baptism is a proclamation of the Lordship of God in the heart.
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Yes, there is. Please read over my responses and clarifications of my previous statements.

Again, we say nothing. God says everything. The proclamation must never come from us. We are His, He is not ours. We don't proclaim anything other than His Word and His Word does not tell us that we make Him Lord. We don't make Him Lord. He makes us subjects.
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Our calling upon the name of the Lord is an expression of the heart of the faith that God gives. We outwardly express this inward reality in baptism. Our triune God is magnified, because it is done in His name as a testimony to His gracious working in our lives. He has "shown in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." In baptism, we express this in an outward symbol and sign.

Here baptism is placed on the same plane as teaching, yet you are not suggesting that teaching is equal to the physical sign of baptism.
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Baptism is a command for those who are made disciples of Christ through the agency of the Holy Spirit and the instrumentation of the proclaimation of His Word. Teaching is also a command.

Hopefully I adequately clarified things. Does my position concur with the biblical text?

Your brother,

Matthew
 
Gabe,

Baptism being associated in any way with Justification not only scares me, but reminds me of Federal Vision proponents!
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Baptism is a portrayl of what happened when we became a Christian upon the moment of justification:

"1. Baptism portrays our death in the death of Christ. Verses 3-4a: "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death," Here is a great truth about us Christians. We have died. When Christ died he died our death. This means at least two things. 1) One is that we are not the same people we once were; our old self has died. We are not the same. 2) Another is that our future physical death will not have the same meaning for us that it would have had if Christ had not died our death. Since we have died with Christ, and he died our death for us, our death will not be the horrible thing it would have been. "O death where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" (1 Corinthians 15:55). The answer is that the sting and the victory of death have been swallowed up by Christ. Remember from last week: he drank the tank. Notice the repetition of the word "into" in verses 3 and 4. Baptized "into Christ Jesus," and baptized "into his death" (verse 3), and baptism "into death" (verse 4a). What this says is that baptism portrays our union with Christ, that is, we are united to him spiritually so that his death becomes our death and his life will become our life. How do we experience this? How do you know if this has happened to you? The answer is that it is experienced by faith. You can hear this in the parallel verses. Galatians 2:20 makes the connection with faith: "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me, and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God. . ." In other words, the "I" who died was the old unbelieving, rebellious "I" and the "I" who came to life was the "I" of faith - "The life I now live I live by faith in the Son of God." And the basis of all this is union with Christ - "Christ lives in me." And I live in him - in spiritual union with him. His death is my death and his life is being lived out in my life.

Another illustration of this would be Colossians 2:6-7a: "As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith." Here again you can see that faith in Christ is the way you experience union with Christ. You receive him as Lord and Savior and in that faith you are united to him and walk "in him" and are built up "in him."

So when Romans 6:3-4a says that we are baptized into Christ and into his death, I take it to mean that baptism expresses the faith in which we experience union with Christ. This is presumably why God designed the mode of baptism to portray a burial. It represents the death that we experience when we are united to Christ. This is why we are immersed: it's a symbolic burial.

So know, believer, that you have died. The old unbelieving, rebellious "I" has been crucified with Christ. This is what your baptism meant and means.

2. Baptism portrays our newness of life in Christ.

Verse 4: "We have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life." Nobody stays under the water of baptism. We come up out of the water. After death comes new life. The old "I" of unbelief and rebellion died when I was united to Christ through faith. But the instant the old "I" died a new "I" was given life - a new spiritual person was, as it were, raised from the dead.

The most crucial commentary on this truth is Colossians 2:12. Paul says, "Having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." Notice: We are raised up with Christ just like Romans 6:4 says we walk in newness of life. And there is the working of God who raised him from the dead just like Romans 6:4 says that Christ was raised through the glory of the Father. And this happens through faith in the working of God who raised Jesus from the dead.

So Colossians 2:12 makes explicit what Romans 6:4 leaves implicit - that baptism expresses our faith in the working of God to raise Jesus from the dead. We believe that Christ is alive from the grave and reigning today at the Father's right hand in heaven from which he will come again in power and glory. And that faith in God's working - God's glory as Paul calls it - is how we share in the newness of life that Christ has in himself.

In fact, the newness of life is the life of faith in the glory and the working of God. "I am crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live . . but the life I live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God." The newness of life is the life of day by day trusting in the working of God - the glory of God.

Baptism Portrays What Happened to us When We Became Christians So let's summarize and come to a conclusion. Baptism portrays what happened to us when we became Christians. This is what happened to us: we were united to Christ. His death became our death. We died with him. And in the same instant, his life became our life. We are now living out the life of Christ in us. And all this is experienced through faith."


Scott and Brian,

Matthew,
This thinking is akin to Arminianism or semi-Pelagianism. Formula does not have anything to do with salvation; whether or not one church is more proper in their administration of the sacrament than another, is irrelevent.
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I never said formula is conditional upon salvation. I mean that it seems correct to me that most of those who testify of an inward reality of faith and repentance within the context of a healthy church will indeed be honest professors. This may not be the case, it just seems to be the case. Therefore, it seems that most who are baptised will be honestly displaying an inward reality, just as it seems that most professors who are martyred will be honestly displaying an inward reality. Maybe not. It just appears that it may be the case. If not, that is sad, but possible, reality.
 
Originally posted by piningforChrist
Please see your own confession for refutation: This passage speaks about sanctification, not justification, as the 1689 uses it in Chapter 13 on Sanctification.
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This passage outlines the basis for sanctification, justification. Therefore, it speaks to both. And, baptism is tied to the basis of our sanctification, what God did in justifying us, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:3-4).
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Matthew, you are still missing the point. Please try to understand the oppositions point.

Examine Romans 6:3-4: Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Now either all those who have been and ever will be physically baptized are in Christ Jesus and thus justified, or this passage is not referring to baptism alone validating one's position in Christ.

Do you see what we are saying?

Were Ananias and Saphira baptized into Christ's death? Were they buried with Him through baptism into death?
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Baptism is tied to justification.
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1) Baptism is tied to justification
2) If justified, converted
3) all whom are baptised are justified.

Nonsense. :banghead:
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It is tied to justification in that it portrays (in the lives of honest professors) what happened to us when we were justifed. See my most recent comments.
 
Matthew, you are getting "ganged up on now." I apologize brother.

I will back out and let the teachers here continue to guide.

Grace,

[Edited on 11-16-2005 by ChristopherPaul]
 
I never said formula is conditional upon salvation. I mean that it seems correct to me that most of those who testify of an inward reality of faith and repentance within the context of a healthy church will indeed be honest professors. This may not be the case, it just seems to be the case. Therefore, it seems that most who are baptised will be honestly displaying an inward reality, just as it seems that most professors who are martyred will be honestly displaying an inward reality. Maybe not. It just appears that it may be the case. If not, that is sad, but possible, reality.
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Hold the presses. You have now destroyed your own premise. You previously wrote:

Baptism is tied to justification.
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If it is tied, then one would be justified. You are waffling. Is it or isn't it? Now you say,

Maybe not
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Originally posted by ChristopherPaul
Originally posted by piningforChrist
Please see your own confession for refutation: This passage speaks about sanctification, not justification, as the 1689 uses it in Chapter 13 on Sanctification.
Click to expand...

This passage outlines the basis for sanctification, justification. Therefore, it speaks to both. And, baptism is tied to the basis of our sanctification, what God did in justifying us, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:3-4).
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Matthew, you are still missing the point. Please try to understand the oppositions point.

Examine Romans 6:3-4: Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Now either all those who have been and ever will be physically baptized are in Christ Jesus and thus justified, or this passage is not referring to baptism alone validating one's position in Christ.

Do you see what we are saying?

Were Ananias and Saphira baptized into Christ's death? Were they buried with Him through baptism into death?
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Scott, I understand what you are saying. My response is that baptism means and portrays certain things about what happens upon the point of justification by faith for the true believer, not universally for all who are baptised. It is inextricably linked to being buried and being raised in our being united to Christ by faith alone, this inward reality being expressed for the true believer in baptism by immersion.

1. Baptism portrays our death in the death of Christ.

"So when Romans 6:3-4a says that we are baptized into Christ and into his death, I take it to mean that baptism expresses the faith in which we experience union with Christ. This is presumably why God designed the mode of baptism to portray a burial. It represents the death that we experience when we are united to Christ. This is why we are immersed: it's a symbolic burial.

This is what your baptism meant and means.

2. Baptism portrays our newness of life in Christ.

The most crucial commentary on this truth is Colossians 2:12. Paul says, "Having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." Notice: We are raised up with Christ just like Romans 6:4 says we walk in newness of life. And there is the working of God who raised him from the dead just like Romans 6:4 says that Christ was raised through the glory of the Father. And this happens through faith in the working of God who raised Jesus from the dead.

So Colossians 2:12 makes explicit what Romans 6:4 leaves implicit - that baptism expresses our faith in the working of God to raise Jesus from the dead. We believe that Christ is alive from the grave and reigning today at the Father's right hand in heaven from which he will come again in power and glory. And that faith in God's working - God's glory as Paul calls it - is how we share in the newness of life that Christ has in himself....

Baptism portrays what happened to us when we became Christians. This is what happened to us: we were united to Christ. His death became our death. We died with him. And in the same instant, his life became our life. We are now living out the life of Christ in us. And all this is experienced through faith."
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
I never said formula is conditional upon salvation. I mean that it seems correct to me that most of those who testify of an inward reality of faith and repentance within the context of a healthy church will indeed be honest professors. This may not be the case, it just seems to be the case. Therefore, it seems that most who are baptised will be honestly displaying an inward reality, just as it seems that most professors who are martyred will be honestly displaying an inward reality. Maybe not. It just appears that it may be the case. If not, that is sad, but possible, reality.
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Hold the presses. You have now destroyed your own premise. You previously wrote:

Baptism is tied to justification.
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If it is tied, then one would be justified. You are waffling. Is it or isn't it? Now you say,

Maybe not
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I would like to erase the phrase "tied". That was a mistake. Baptism and Justification are related, not tied (related is what I meant by tied, but tied has different connotations, so I appologize). Baptism expresses the new covenant reality of faith and repentance whereupon we are justified and born of the Spirit, unlike those of the old covenant whose reality was of the flesh and was marked upon natural birth. Upon faith and repentance, we are justified. Therefore, for the true professor (and baptism was commanded and intended for the true professor), baptism expresses his being united to Christ in His death and in His life, signified by being immersed under the water and being brought up. Since babes cannot be true professors, it is improper to baptize them.
 
"Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:3-4).

Connect the dots for me please. Where is justification in these two verses?
 
Matthew,
You are confusing what baptism is subjectively or practically to the believer and what it is theologically.
 
Connect the dots for me please. Where is justification in these two verses?
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From the point of our first declarative justification, "we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life." When we called upon the name of the Lord (yes, we continue to do so, but the initial justifying call I have in view here), were justified, and when we were justifed, we were united to Christ in His death and life. Baptism signifies for true professors, their being united to Christ.
 
From the LBCF 1689 (Identical on this to the WCF):

"Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love."
 
Originally posted by piningforChrist
Connect the dots for me please. Where is justification in these two verses?
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From the point of our first declarative justification, "we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life." When we called upon the name of the Lord (yes, we continue to do so, but the initial justifying call I have in view here), were justified, and when we were justifed, we were united to Christ in His death and life. Baptism signifies for true professors, their being united to Christ.
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Matthew,
Can you define what you mean by 'professor'?
 
Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
Are you saying Baptism AND Faith are the instruments of Justification?
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By no means. I am saying that the practical expression baptism portrays the theological reality baptism for the true professor.
 
Originally posted by piningforChrist
Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
Are you saying Baptism AND Faith are the instruments of Justification?
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By no means. I am saying that the practical expression baptism portrays the theological reality baptism for the true professor.
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The theological reality of baptism is regeneration.
 
Originally posted by piningforChrist
Connect the dots for me please. Where is justification in these two verses?
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From the point of our first declarative justification, "we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life." When we called upon the name of the Lord (yes, we continue to do so, but the initial justifying call I have in view here), were justified, and when we were justifed, we were united to Christ in His death and life. Baptism signifies for true professors, their being united to Christ.
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No.
Justification is not what unites us to Christ. We are united to Christ, historically, at the moment of our regeneration, "in our effectual calling," as our confession (if not yours) affirms. Faith is the instrumental cause. Justification (as well as adoption and sanctification) is a benefit partaken of by those who are effectually called.

[Edited on 11-16-2005 by Contra_Mundum]
 
Matthew,
Can you define what you mean by 'professor'?
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Professor: one who affirms belief in the essentials of Christianity (in our context)

True Professor: one whose affirmation of belief in the essentials of Christianity conforms with the reality of divine light imparted by the Spirit of God granting regeneration and a true faith and repentance.
 
basically the same with circumcision. Circumcision represented a circumsized heart, a cutting away of the sinful flesh, etc. yet is was still given to infants.
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I disagree. This is not biblical in any sense. Circumcision marked physical ingrafting into physical, ethnic Israel = the Old Covenant. I suppose this is our main difference in creed.
 
Matthew,

You may be "reformed" in your basic understanding of monergistic salvation (although some of your argumentation seems to betray this), however you a talking like a dispensationalist.
 
Originally posted by piningforChrist
basically the same with circumcision. Circumcision represented a circumcised heart, a cutting away of the sinful flesh, etc. yet is was still given to infants.
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I disagree. This is not biblical in any sense. Circumcision marked physical ingrafting into physical, ethnic Israel = the Old Covenant. I suppose this is our main difference in creed.
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Matthew,

You are not thinking through this - Abraham was not Israel. Jacob had not even been born yet. Israel is not in the picture at all. Circumcision is given to Abraham and HIS FAMILY. It marked, literally, the covenantal union God said He would have with "Abraham and your descents forever" as an everlasting covenant. Its not a main difference in understanding the creed - its a main difference of just getting our biblical history right.

Circumcision is a sign of God's Abrahamic promise and covenant , and is a symbol of regeneration (Deut. 10, Jeremiah 4), which was given to Abraham and his whole household.

You said that you "disagree" that circumcision is in any way linked to regeneration but marked physical inclusion to Israel. You'll have to tell the OT prophets, then, God was wrong:

Deuteronomy 10:16-17 "Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer. 17 "For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.

Deuteronomy 30:6 6 "And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, And take away the foreskins of your hearts, You men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Lest My fury come forth like fire, And burn so that no one can quench it, Because of the evil of your doings."

Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands,

Sounds like the Prophets and Apostles had their theology in sync. Again, as I repeated before, it sounds like the Doctrine of Regeneration is eluding you as to the manner of the OT and NT. You quoted Edwards earlier, but I demonstrated that you are misunderstanding Edwards thoroughly. I would cease participating in this thread any longer, and instead get a biblical grip on the basics of regeneration. Without that, you are not going to be able to understand covenant concepts at all, or even the primary elements of John 3. Remember, Christ REBUKED Nicodemus for not understanding the Old Testament concepts behind regeneration and being born again, especially since he was Israel's teacher (3:10). Teachers of the church today who teach things contrary to these clear passages should be rebuked as well.
 
No.
Justification is not what unites us to Christ. We are united to Christ, historically, at the moment of our regeneration, "in our effectual calling," as our confession (if not yours) affirms. Faith is the instrumental cause. Justification (as well as adoption and sanctification) is a benefit partaken of by those who are effectually called.
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I did not say historically.
 
Rom. 6:3-4 (standing at the head of chapters 6-8) are speaking of the ultimate result of union with Christ--living out the "newness of life" that is ours by virtue of regeneration (re-again, generation--life).

Union with Christ involves union to everything about him. He died for our sins. So we died. Baptism symbolizes our union with him, and his death is a part of that identification. So, since we suffer with him (8:17), and died with him (2 Tim 2:11), we were also buried with him. And we will be glorified with him (8:17 again). And in between, we are raised with him to walk in newness of life. His righteousness--and everything else about him--became ours the moment we apprehended him by faith, the moment we came to life, our spiritual eyes opened, the light dawned, and we saw by faith the Savior.

Logically, the immediate consequence of that is God pardons us from sin, accepts us as righteous in his sight, only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us and received by faith alone--justification, a purely legal declaration.

We are justified because the Father sees Christ's death objectively when he looks at us, as well as Christ's obedience. We aren't justified on the ground of our regeneration, or our faith, or our profession, but on the ground of Christ's righteousness. We believe these things, receiving them, appropriating them, by faith, thus really making them our own, subjectively. And Paul is not building an argument in Rom. 6 that justification is that ground or basis from which springs our sanctification.

No, it is much deeper and foundational than the forensic verdict. It springs from our union with Christ that has made us born-again, that has made a "new creature" out of us. The newlife produces fruit in keeping with repentance.
 
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