Assurance, A Second Work? Only For Some Believers?

[David Shedlock]

there are many who show strong evidence of being genuine believers, who yet can not seem to be assured of Gods love to them.

If you ask them, if they are trusting in Christ, do they not say they do? Then reassure them that it is all that "requires." IF they say they do not, then call upon them to trust Christ alone, not the evidence that you see that makes you think they are believers. Looking to your own sanctification for assurance seems like a fool's errand to me, since the vain professor can always find things in himself to make him confident.

Are you saying that Brooks didn't mean it, when he said that few, real Christians obtain assurance?

 

[Conner]

The problem with confounding faith and assurance is the following, described by Goodwin in "The Objects And Acts of Justifying Faith". "In practice, many understand faith to be belief and persuasion only, so they make faith a good persuasion and opinion of their present condition. The object in goal of their faith is their own estate, and not Christ and his love, so their faith is not a good opinion of him or founded on the daily thoughts they have of his merit, satisfaction, mercy, grace, righteousness, etc. their faith is a good opinion of themselves, arising out of the self-flattery of their own hearts, so that they honor not Christ in their thoughts so much as themselves; theirs is a judgment of charity to themselves rather than faith in Christ. I call it the charitable opinion that one Christian is bound to have of others, the assumption that they are the children of God, but their eternal state is good, and that they are in Christ. Such a charitable opinion of themselves, whereby, as the apostle says of the Hebrews, they are persuaded of good things concerning themselves, is the only faith of the great many people; but this is not to believe on Christ, but on themselves. The fact that their own estate is indeed the object of their faith is evident by this, that if any man goes about to discover his natural condition while he is without true faith, he soon becomes upset, and says, "You would bring me to unbelief and despair. "This is because an apprehension that his present state is good is that, and all that, which he reckons is faith. But those who seek his good would bring him from a false belief about his state and himself to a good and a true belief in Christ, and on God's free grace, which are the prime objects of faith."

 

[Conner]

If you ask a genuine believer if they are trusting in Christ, then one possible answer at a rough spot could possibly be, "I don't know". It has certainly happened to me before.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

David,

For one who claims to subscribe to Reformed doctrine you have a lot of animus toward it. Before you've even asked the question, you are already convinced the reasoning is circular.

Do you understand the concept of union with Christ? If you do then your concern about circular reasoning would be resolved. From where is your assurance grounded? You say it's not looking within yourself but you're the person stating he has assurance and so you are very sure of your assurance. Upon what basis? Is it simply the strength of your own will to look outside yourself and believe that you are assured?

The Reformed doctrine of assurance is rooted in Christ as Mediator - as Prophet, Priest, and King. I suggest you read the WLC on this topic because it is very rich. We believe at first because of Christ's intercession, the conversion of our hearts by the Prophetic office of preaching, and we are perfected and kept by Christ's rule. If you have not studied union with Christ you need to do so. It's not that Christ's own will potentially bear fruit or probably bear fruit but will bear fruit.

Why is it called fruit? Why do the Apostles call something fruit? Why does Christ condemn the Pharisees for failing to produce fruit? Is fruit something hidden?

You see, if we are in Christ we are saved. If we are in Christ we are abiding in the vine. If we are in the vine then Christ says that all who are in Him bear fruit. It's all part of His work as Prophet, Priest, and King. What is visible to us is FRUIT. That's why Christ calls it that. We don't have contact with eternity or know the hidden will of God. We know what is manifest.

Thus we believe the Word and it says that all those who put their trust in Christ will be saved. We ask ourselves: Am I believing? Yes. I am united to Christ. The fruit has assured us.

The Word says that all who are baptized and believe in Christ can count on the Promise of God. Satan assails us with our sin and we ask ourselves: "Am I despairing of myself and trusting in Christ for my salvation alone? I am. Christ promises in my baptism that I am saved if I put my trust in Him. I know I'm saved."

The Word says that all who abide in Christ will be made holy. Do I see any evidence of fruit? Do I look like one who is abiding in the Vine? Yeah, I see sin in my members but I also see that the Spirit is enabling me to give battle to sin and I find myself more affectionate for the things of God. I can see the work of Christ in my life and I am yet again assured by fruit.

The irony of the one who despises looking at fruit is how self-dependent they are. How strong they are. The Reformed doctrines of fruit is actually an admission of how weak and beggarly we are as creatures. We are limited in time and space and prone to melancholy and set backs. We walk through the valley of the shadow of death and wonder if God might possibly love us. Christ doesn't say: "Suck it up! You either have faith or you don't. Just remember to believe HARD!"

No, our Savior condescends. The Sacraments are beggarly evidences. Preaching reminds us to look again to Christ. We are constantly called to repent and turn to Christ because we're beggarly. We're told to look at the fruit that Christ is producing in us not because we're strong but because we're weak and we need yet another beggarly witness that what we might be telling ourselves is less true than the fruit we see from the loving Hand of our Prophet, Priest, and King.

If you find yourself able to stand so firm without any of the things that Christ has given to you to assure that you are His own well I would say be careful that you stand lest you fall. It is not a fool's errand to look at the Lord's work in us but surely is folly to despise the number of places where the Lord comforts the weak by saying: "Look at what I'm doing."

 

[David Shedlock]

I'll kindly ask again. Do you have it?

I think that is between me and my Lord.

As to your second question, yes, it includes sanctification. I am sanctified, am being sanctified and will be sanctified on the last day. I believe the promises to this fact.

Sanctification is the work of the Spirit in the believer. Assurance of that must require some reflection on Christian progress in terms of what 2 Peter 1 calls adding to faith.

So, if you were my pastor, you couldn't tell me if you are saved or not, if your sins are forgiven are not?

 

[JimmyH]

2 Peter 1:5-15Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[Conner]

I believe, help my unbelief...

 

[David Shedlock]

For one who claims to subscribe to Reformed doctrine you have a lot of animus toward it. Before you've even asked the question, you are already convinced the reasoning is circular.

I suggest that Beeke is arguing in circles, not the confession. I have been told that habitual sin is evidence that I may not be saved. What about the habitual sin of doubting God's promises?

From where is your assurance grounded? You say it's not looking within yourself but you're the person stating he has assurance and so you are very sure of your assurance. Upon what basis? Is it simply the strength of your own will to look outside yourself and believe that you are assured?

You seem to make it too complicated. My assurance is based upon the many passages I quoted earlier and many others. I believe them. Being born again into his kingdom and translated from darkness into light, is not something that could go unnoticed by a believer. When you're saved, you know it. (And the Spirit bears witness that I am saved.) One of our elders came away from reading one of the Erskine brothers' biography, when Erskine said, essentially, that he grew up and was even ordained as a Presbyterian minister before he realized that he needed to be born again. Perhaps an overreaction to "altar calls" has led us to think that being born again can happen without our notice: "But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

In the parable of the Pharisee and Tax Collector, it is the Pharisee who examined himself and saw evidences of faith. The other, who went home justified, saw only his sin and cried out in repentance.

" Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" This Scripture says that we are to examine our faith, not our obedience, and to take notice of whether Christ is in us.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

My dear brother David:

We may all confess the same thing but do not express all of our convictions about the faith in the same way. Perhaps you don't care for the way some put the matter of assurance. I can appreciate that. I certainly would reject "habitual sin means that one is not saved," but that's not quite the same thing as someone saying that it "may mean" that. Are you saying simply and plainly that everyone who claims to be saved is saved? I hope not, since that would be contra WCF 18.1

Now, I agree that there are those who put too much emphasis on the subjective (our sense of our trust, good works, etc.) and too little on looking to Christ. Bonar is supposed to have said, "For every look at yourself, take ten looks at Christ." Brooks said what he did, though I think that others have done a good job contextualizing it. I think that Dr. Beeke's remarks have been contextualized as well. Perhaps you don't agree with how these brothers slice things. That's all right as long as we believe and confess the same things, though differing in expressions. We have some different ways of putting things, given our particular concerns, but you seem determined, pardon me for putting it so strongly, to go after these brothers.

Differ with the way that Beeke and Brooks put it--fine--but your tone in this, brother, concerns me (I agree with Rich that you seem to have an animus here), and I would encourage you to think more carefully about the way that you continue to address matters here.

Peace,
Alan

 

[David Shedlock]

Thank you, Dr. Strange, for your gracious response.

Your wrote

"Are you saying simply and plainly that everyone who claims to be saved is saved?"

No, of course not, the Scriptures teach otherwise. Our discussions have been in the context of believers.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

David:

I appreciate your gracious response, brother.

And your specific answer to my question about all who claim to be saved. Your answer is biblical and confessional--not all who make the claim are necessarily partakers of salvation.

I also appreciate it when you end by saying, "our discussions have been in the context of believers." This is just the question, though, isn't it? Am I necessarily a believer because I am on this board, confess what I do, and am even a teacher in Christ's church? No. All of that is but refuse as far as my eternal destiny is concerned, rightly understood.

I am sinner, through and through, desperately in need every moment of a Savior, and having none at all, and no hope whatseover, but Christ. I am thinking of Paul here in Philippians 3, brother. The reason that I have assurance is not because of anything that I am or have or do, but because of who Christ is and what He has done for me. Now, He who has justified me freely and adopted me graciously also sanctifies me. But if I dare not trust the sweetest frame, I dare trust nothing but Jesus' name. And when I do, I desire to live for Him and Him alone, though I fall so short and fail miserably in this.

If you are saying that this should all be easy--If I believe on Him, I should have assurance, this misses the reality of the dynamic of a living relationship. It does not work this way in real life relationships nor in my relationship with Christ. There are many ups and downs and my assurance ebbs and flows with that. Yes, I should have assurance perfectly all the time and not have it intermitted by my sin and struggles. I also should not sin. The reality, however, of all of this is beautifully realized in WCF 18, especially the reasons for intermitting of assurance by 18.4:

"True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair."

Assurance is the problem that it is, and not as simple as you want to make it (at least so it seems to me), because we have remaining sin. Yes, we can have infallible assurance, but even that ebbs and flows as does our faith and repentance. One can get frustrated over this, just like one can be frustrated at the incomprehensibility of God and all His ways: How can God be three-in-one, how can Christ have two natures in one person, how can He be sovereign and I responsible, how can I believe and yet sometimes question whether I really believe? Assurance is not an all or nothing proposition, and it's unsurprising that, since we differ in degrees of sanctification, we will differ in degrees of assurance.

Peace,
Alan

 

[VictorBravo]

So, if you were my pastor, you couldn't tell me if you are saved or not, if your sins are forgiven are not?

I think this personal focus detracts from the preaching.

If a pastor says, "I'm saved because I believe, and I know I'm saved because of the following things I do....", I'd get nervous about the message. The reason is that the focus is all on self, which I think is dangerous ground. The heart is desperately wicked. We are all self-deceived and cannot even judge our own thoughts and actions without God's grace and without looking to God's standards.

It strikes me as a strange question to ask someone who holds to the Doctrines of Grace: "are you saved or not?" The only truthful answer that seems possible is along the lines of "I believe God's word and promise, may God grant that I believe and have mercy on my unbelief."

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I suggest that Beeke is arguing in circles, not the confession. I have been told that habitual sin is evidence that I may not be saved. What about the habitual sin of doubting God's promises?

Here is the WLC on Assurance:

Q. 80. Can true believers be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and that they shall persevere therein unto salvation?
A. Such as truly believe in Christ, and endeavour to walk in all good conscience before him,349 may, without extraordinary revelation, by faith grounded upon the truth of God’s promises, and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made,350 and bearing witness with their spirits that they are the children of God,351 be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and shall persevere therein unto salvation.352

Q. 81. Are all true believers at all times assured of their present being in the estate of grace, and that they shall be saved?
A. Assurance of grace and salvation not being of the essence of faith,353 true believers may wait long before they obtain it;354 and, after the enjoyment thereof, may have it weakened and intermitted, through manifold distempers, sins, temptations, and desertions;355 yet they are never left without such a presence and support of the Spirit of God as keeps them from sinking into utter despair.356

Footnote 350: 1 Corinthians 2:12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1 John 3:14, 18-19, 21, 24. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death..... My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him..... Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.... And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1 John 4:13, 16. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.... And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Hebrews 6:11-12. And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Now what are the "graces" that you are enabled to see in yourself to which the promises of life are made? Here is the list form the WLC:

1. Faith (Question 32)
2. Justification (Question 73)
3. Good works (Question 73, 75)
4. Repentance unto life (Question 75, 76)
5. Sanctification (Question 75)

If you agree with the Standards then when it states that the Spirit enables us to see in ourselves the graces that attend with being partakers in life and it lists the graces as above (to include not only our faith but also our progress in sanctification) then what is your argument about?

 

[David Shedlock]

David:

I appreciate your gracious response, brother.

And your specific answer to my question about all who claim to be saved. Your answer is biblical and confessional--not all who make the claim are necessarily partakers of salvation.

I also appreciate it when you end by saying, "our discussions have been in the context of believers." This is just the question, though, isn't it? Am I necessarily a believer because I am on this board, confess what I do, and am even a teacher in Christ's church? No. All of that is but refuse as far as my eternal destiny is concerned, rightly understood.

I am sinner, through and through, desperately in need every moment of a Savior, and having none at all, and no hope whatseover, but Christ. I am thinking of Paul here in Philippians 3, brother. The reason that I have assurance is not because of anything that I am or have or do, but because of who Christ is and what He has done for me. Now, He who has justified me freely and adopted me graciously also sanctifies me. But if I dare not trust the sweetest frame, I dare trust nothing but Jesus' name. And when I do, I desire to live for Him and Him alone, though I fall so short and fail miserably in this.

If you are saying that this should all be easy--If I believe on Him, I should have assurance, this misses the reality of the dynamic of a living relationship. It does not work this way in real life relationships nor in my relationship with Christ. There are many ups and downs and my assurance ebbs and flows with that. Yes, I should have assurance perfectly all the time and not have it intermitted by my sin and struggles. I also should not sin. The reality, however, of all of this is beautifully realized in WCF 18, especially the reasons for intermitting of assurance by 18.4:

"True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair."

Assurance is the problem that it is, and not as simple as you want to make it (at least so it seems to me), because we have remaining sin. Yes, we can have infallible assurance, but even that ebbs and flows as does our faith and repentance. One can get frustrated over this, just like one can be frustrated at the incomprehensibility of God and all His ways: How can God be three-in-one, how can Christ have two natures in one person, how can He be sovereign and I responsible, how can I believe and yet sometimes question whether I really believe? Assurance is not an all or nothing proposition, and it's unsurprising that, since we differ in degrees of sanctification, we will differ in degrees of assurance.

Peace,
Alan

I was with you all the way until the last sentence. Our assurance, if based upon our own sanctification, will be the fleeting thing you describe. I see two dangers with this approach. 1). That self-examination leads me to believe I am saved, which leads to self-righteousness or 2) I truly see my sin more and more, leading to desperation. However, if my trust is in the work of Christ and His grace alone, my assurance will be study. I have said it before, I understand that it can be at a low ebb in times of trial or temptation. Who used self-examination in the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector?

 

[David Shedlock]

So, if you were my pastor, you couldn't tell me if you are saved or not, if your sins are forgiven are not?

I think this personal focus detracts from the preaching.

If a pastor says, "I'm saved because I believe, and I know I'm saved because of the following things I do....", I'd get nervous about the message. The reason is that the focus is all on self, which I think is dangerous ground. The heart is desperately wicked. We are all self-deceived and cannot even judge our own thoughts and actions without God's grace and without looking to God's standards.

It strikes me as a strange question to ask someone who holds to the Doctrines of Grace: "are you saved or not?" The only truthful answer that seems possible is along the lines of "I believe God's word and promise, may God grant that I believe and have mercy on my unbelief."

I would also be worried if he said "I'm saved because I believe, and I know I'm saved because of the following things I do...." That is my point exactly. Self-examination for assurance is a losing argument for me. The New Testament is full of testimonies of saints declaring that their sins are forgiven, they are saved, etc. No wonder in some circles, so few come to the table.

 

[David Shedlock]

If you agree with the Standards then when it states that the Spirit enables us to see in ourselves the graces that attend with being partakers in life and it lists the graces as above (to include not only our faith but also our progress in sanctification) then what is your argument about?

Questions 73-75 only speak of what God will do in the believer. It says nothing of the Spirit enabling him to see in himself these graces. That seems to be a gloss.

 

[AJ Castellitto]

I agree with David, I am usually led to self-examination due to guilt & sin, as soon as I look in & reflect
I am forced to look back out to Christ..... There is my faith & assurance found.... Assurance is in Christ. And guilt over sin is an aspect of faith as well as repentance & faith exercises that get us away from entertaining sin & pride.. And to greater reverence, humility & personal/group fellowship with God. When someone asks are you saved? A humble response is 'I can't deny Jesus has awakened me & become my dependency' .... Might not be worded perfectly but I think we get the gist

 

[AJ Castellitto]

I do think Beeke over expounds.... Sin & trials shake the faith by making us 'me' focused as does pride, success & ambition can make us too 'me' focused..... But we must not remain there..... We can wrestle with God & spiritually fight & war against affliction (that's where the light may dim) but our feelings & emotions may not undue our faith & dependency.... So even in storms of life we will be forced to humbly praise & persevere (never losing our faith) and view of Christ as the object of our faith & assurance (which I think is rightly experienced as dependency)

 

[AJ Castellitto]

Sorry, I forgot to add the link I was reading... Faith and Assurance by Joel Beeke | Reformed Theology Articles at Ligonier.org maybe it just depends on where we are in our spiritual life that affects our subjective view but I think we get too much intellectual instruction up front & tend to 'follow, seek, search, wait on' as prescribed by the theologian rather than just get to know & experience God through getting in the Word & communicating through prayer... Theology is important but I believe it can sometimes over systemize or force too much unto the word, instead of allowing the word to come to us & personally speak to us

 

[MW]

Questions 73-75 only speak of what God will do in the believer. It says nothing of the Spirit enabling him to see in himself these graces. That seems to be a gloss.

The correct reference is answer 80, which includes in its description of assurance, "and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made." This is what makes assurance real, as opposed to being an existential leap of faith.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

If you agree with the Standards then when it states that the Spirit enables us to see in ourselves the graces that attend with being partakers in life and it lists the graces as above (to include not only our faith but also our progress in sanctification) then what is your argument about?

Questions 73-75 only speak of what God will do in the believer. It says nothing of the Spirit enabling him to see in himself these graces. That seems to be a gloss.

I suggest that Beeke is arguing in circles, not the confession. I have been told that habitual sin is evidence that I may not be saved. What about the habitual sin of doubting God's promises?

Here is the WLC on Assurance:

Q. 80. Can true believers be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and that they shall persevere therein unto salvation?
A. Such as truly believe in Christ, and endeavour to walk in all good conscience before him,349 may, without extraordinary revelation, by faith grounded upon the truth of God’s promises, and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made,350 and bearing witness with their spirits that they are the children of God,351 be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and shall persevere therein unto salvation.352

Questions 73-75 only speak of what God will do in the believer. It says nothing of the Spirit enabling him to see in himself these graces. That seems to be a gloss.

The correct reference is answer 80, which includes in its description of assurance, "and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made." This is what makes assurance real, as opposed to being an existential leap of faith.

David,

I believe the one who is glossing over what I quoted is you. Question 80 and 81 (which I quoted) speak of Assurance and how the Spirit works assurance within the believer. I specifically noted that the Spirit enables a believer to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made.

Now, one has to ask oneself: What did they mean by "the graces"? This is answered all over the Standards and so I quoted some of the examples (73-75) of where the standards list the graces that come from union with Christ. Among those graces are the things I listed.

And so I ask you again, if you agree with the Standards then what is your problem?

You noted that WLC 73-75 are the things that God produces in us.

Precisely!

Whoever said otherwise? It is the Spirit's work in us that produces life. As we abide in the Vine we will produce fruit. Consequently, what the Standards teach is that we can discern the fruit that is being produced within us as one example of progress in sanctification. What, precisely, do you think the metaphor of "fruit" is used for by Christ and the Apostles so frequently? Are the "fruits of the Spirit" something we are to expect in our lives or not? If we do have fruit then will it be at all evident?

William Perkins' Golden Chain makes the point that our salvation is from eternity but we are in history. We cannot see the decree of God but our salvation is linked to eternity past, present, and future. God elected us, called us, justified us, adopted us, is sanctifiying us, and will glorify us.

Grab the chain at any point and you're able to see yourself in salvation history.

- Grab it at baptism and you can be assured of salvation because of the Promise made in your baptism and the faith you have in your Savior.
- Grab it in times of severe trial and temptation on a simple trust in Christ where you can scarcely believe that you believe the Gospel and you can still be assured.
- Grab it (as Israel did near the end of his life) by looking back over the years in your more quiet and reflective moments and think about how the Lord has made you more patient and kind that you used to be. These moments may not be constant but they exist where you can see that your numbers have been few and evil but that the Angel of the Lord has been faithful for all these years. You can see that the Lord has produced fruit in you because His Hand kept you in Him. This is not, as some keep insisting, some trust in one's on righteousness but a humble acknowledgement that the Lord has been good to you and preserved you from many dangers, toils, and snares and given you successes over some temptations but preserved you during the failures.

All of these (and others) are examples of how we can "grab" hold of the chain and be assured of our salvation. While it may seem "humble" to say that one does not look to himself, even the publican in the parable had to acknowledge himself a sinner and reach out to Christ. It is impossible to not be self-aware as to whether one believes the Gospel or not. When the Scriptures say: "If Today you hear His voice, harden not your hearts" we have to be able to acknowledge ourselves yet sinful and in need of a Savior. There is no escaping self-examination.

 

[jwithnell]

If scripture tells us to "examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith," (2 Cor 13:5) it follows that the question is open for either a yes or no response. Such verses are a safe guard for the terrifying scene of appearing before Christ to be told: "depart from me, I never knew you" (Matt 7:23). This is consistent with the WCF's teaching on the assurance of faith.

This isn't a "second work" as much as an ongoing part of sanctification. And while going through times where assurance has waned very low (yup, people on this board would admit to going through such times, count me among them) such times can also lead to periods of great devotion and closeness to Jesus as we discover anew our total and complete dependence on Him.

Objectivity has been mentioned, but it needs to be address directly. Though I'm not familiar with the Beeke work you mention, other great authors on the subject including J.C. Ryle are careful to turn the reader's eye from inward feelings to an outward examination of the work that Jesus has done and to the promises scripture has made. Others, including Jonathan Edwards and Richard Sibbes comment on concerns for those who never ask questions of assurance.

 

[AJ Castellitto]

I think those last 2 posts bring more clarity....

I think I have the dependency part down, I still feel like a 'little faith' when it comes to the fruit.... But I have so many bad habits from a fairly godless upbringing & poor choices early on, that I feel I spend more time picking myself off the floor than making any spiritual progress

 

[AJ Castellitto]

I have a related question though, in Reformed circles issues related to salvation are thoroughly dissected - earlier in this thread it was mentioned 'can you have true saving faith & lack assurance?'.... And we have many Reformed ministers who blush & hesitate when asked 'are you saved?'

But I think we are losing that childlike dependency in all of this - like the poor huckster testifies....

Let's break it down this way... Can you deny Jesus? Well, Peter denied Jesus, so I guess we can too.... But if you did would you weep bitterly? If the answer is yes, there is your assurance AND your faith!

 

[AJ Castellitto]

So, if you were my pastor, you couldn't tell me if you are saved or not, if your sins are forgiven are not?

I think this personal focus detracts from the preaching.

If a pastor says, "I'm saved because I believe, and I know I'm saved because of the following things I do....", I'd get nervous about the message. The reason is that the focus is all on self, which I think is dangerous ground. The heart is desperately wicked. We are all self-deceived and cannot even judge our own thoughts and actions without God's grace and without looking to God's standards.

It strikes me as a strange question to ask someone who holds to the Doctrines of Grace: "are you saved or not?" The only truthful answer that seems possible is along the lines of "I believe God's word and promise, may God grant that I believe and have mercy on my unbelief."

I would also be worried if he said "I'm saved because I believe, and I know I'm saved because of the following things I do...." That is my point exactly. Self-examination for assurance is a losing argument for me. The New Testament is full of testimonies of saints declaring that their sins are forgiven, they are saved, etc. No wonder in some circles, so few come to the table.

Very true!

 

[AJ Castellitto]

David:

I appreciate your gracious response, brother.

And your specific answer to my question about all who claim to be saved. Your answer is biblical and confessional--not all who make the claim are necessarily partakers of salvation.

I also appreciate it when you end by saying, "our discussions have been in the context of believers." This is just the question, though, isn't it? Am I necessarily a believer because I am on this board, confess what I do, and am even a teacher in Christ's church? No. All of that is but refuse as far as my eternal destiny is concerned, rightly understood.

I am sinner, through and through, desperately in need every moment of a Savior, and having none at all, and no hope whatseover, but Christ. I am thinking of Paul here in Philippians 3, brother. The reason that I have assurance is not because of anything that I am or have or do, but because of who Christ is and what He has done for me. Now, He who has justified me freely and adopted me graciously also sanctifies me. But if I dare not trust the sweetest frame, I dare trust nothing but Jesus' name. And when I do, I desire to live for Him and Him alone, though I fall so short and fail miserably in this.

If you are saying that this should all be easy--If I believe on Him, I should have assurance, this misses the reality of the dynamic of a living relationship. It does not work this way in real life relationships nor in my relationship with Christ. There are many ups and downs and my assurance ebbs and flows with that. Yes, I should have assurance perfectly all the time and not have it intermitted by my sin and struggles. I also should not sin. The reality, however, of all of this is beautifully realized in WCF 18, especially the reasons for intermitting of assurance by 18.4:

"True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair."

Assurance is the problem that it is, and not as simple as you want to make it (at least so it seems to me), because we have remaining sin. Yes, we can have infallible assurance, but even that ebbs and flows as does our faith and repentance. One can get frustrated over this, just like one can be frustrated at the incomprehensibility of God and all His ways: How can God be three-in-one, how can Christ have two natures in one person, how can He be sovereign and I responsible, how can I believe and yet sometimes question whether I really believe? Assurance is not an all or nothing proposition, and it's unsurprising that, since we differ in degrees of sanctification, we will differ in degrees of assurance.

Peace,
Alan

I was with you all the way until the last sentence. Our assurance, if based upon our own sanctification, will be the fleeting thing you describe. I see two dangers with this approach. 1). That self-examination leads me to believe I am saved, which leads to self-righteousness or 2) I truly see my sin more and more, leading to desperation. However, if my trust is in the work of Christ and His grace alone, my assurance will be study. I have said it before, I understand that it can be at a low ebb in times of trial or temptation. Who used self-examination in the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector?

I agree with your insights somewhat here ..... Yet Beeke understands, I'm sure, that sanctification produces great knowledge of sin & desire for obedience, if we become a greater sinner with greater knowledge of sin the self-examination probably defeats assurance but with the sanctification comes the greater dependency & obedient spirit.... When the examination is placed on those transformative aspects our assured faith is revealed (or reaffirmed), as confirmed by other posters here as relates to the Confession

 

[JimmyH]

I don't have great knowledge of theology, but I've got great knowledge of sin, and of repentance of same. I'm 65, got saved when I was 36, went to church for a year or so, then stopped and didn't go back for 25 years. During that time I used to say that if we weren't "saved by grace, through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God." I was in a heap of trouble. No joke.

Say that to say, I don't know that my works won't be hay and stubble on 'that day', but I know that Jesus Christ took my sins upon Himself and washed me in His own blood. I have that much assurance. In my unschooled opinion the very fact that assurance concerns you says the Holy Spirit is working within you. Before I was regenerate I couldn't have cared less. Philippians 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[AJ Castellitto]

2 Peter 1:5-15Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Can't argue that

 

[MW]

And we have many Reformed ministers who blush & hesitate when asked 'are you saved?'

They very likely enjoy assurance, but do not want to set themselves up as superior to others. It is not that they blush and hesitate. They are moderate and pastorally sensitive. 2 Corinthians 4:5. It would be well if others followed their lead.

 

[AJ Castellitto]

And we have many Reformed ministers who blush & hesitate when asked 'are you saved?'

They very likely enjoy assurance, but do not want to set themselves up as superior to others. It is not that they blush and hesitate. They are moderate and pastorally sensitive. 2 Corinthians 4:5. It would be well if others followed their lead.

Interesting, I think members in reformed churches are not concerned that a pastor is superior, they are concerned that the pastor is just as insecure as themselves.... That is the point of this thread.... A concern about much preaching & teaching and little actual faith & believing or real acknowledgement of it