About watching movies on streaming

[No Other Name]

Right, and not identified by our Lord as a parable.

Well I have no dog in the historical existence of the prodigal or the rich man and Lazarus et al, but what constitutes identification of a parable? And why does the existence of actual historical figures in the story preclude the narrative from having enough characteristics of a parable to be a parable?

 

[No Other Name]

Is the mustard seed the smallest of all seeds?

I think some flower-bearing plant in Asia is the smallest seed in the world.

 

[Pergamum]

Is the mustard seed the smallest of all seeds?

If I tell my wife to buy the largest bottle of peanut butter while I am at Wal-Mart I don't mean the largest bottle of Peanut Butter in the whole world that has ever existed in the history of the world anywhere, but only at Wal-Mart during my shopping trip. The Mustard Seed was the smallest seed that local farmers planted in their gardens where Jesus lived. To say otherwise is to say that Jesus is wrong.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Well I have no dog in the historical existence of the prodigal or the rich man and Lazarus et al, but what constitutes identification of a parable? And why does the existence of actual historical figures in the story preclude the narrative from having enough characteristics of a parable to be a parable?

I think a parable is simply a story that conveys a truth? But that doesn’t mean it has to be a made-up story, I don’t believe. My language has been a bit sloppy, but I didn’t mean to say I *know the stories of Lazarus or the prodigal son were historically true, but just that we don’t have to assume they’re not true, unless there’s a theological reason we should.

This is definitely a rabbit trail taking away from the OP! Sorry.

 

[No Other Name]

If I tell my wife to buy the largest bottle of peanut butter while I am at Wal-Mart I don't mean the largest bottle of Peanut Butter in the whole world that has ever existed in the history of the world anywhere, but only at Wal-Mart during my shopping trip. The Mustard Seed was the smallest seed that local farmers planted in their gardens where Jesus lived. To say otherwise is to say that Jesus is wrong.

Mark 4:31 - It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when sown on the ground, is the smallest of all the seeds on earth,

I'm just saying here that your peanut butter analogy doesn't quite "stick its landing" as I see it, although I do agree with your overall point about the mustard seed being the smallest in Israel and the fact Jesus was definitely not wrong.

Not only was it the smallest known in Israel at that time, the smallest seed is actually an orchid and would not be considered a grain.

There are smaller grains than the mustard but that would be akin to us demanding Jesus stop teaching His theology and start teaching about teff seeds in Africa (or whatever is discovered to be smaller grains now).

I believe God uses these verses to illuminate a light on our hearts and will our hearts harden over such a minute factoid? Or will we put our hands to the plow and remain faithful in His ministry through us?

 

[Pergamum]

Mark 4:31 - It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when sown on the ground, is the smallest of all the seeds on earth,

I'm just saying here that your peanut butter analogy doesn't quite "stick its landing" as I see it, although I do agree with your overall point about the mustard seed being the smallest in Israel and the fact Jesus was definitely not wrong.

Not only was it the smallest known in Israel at that time, the smallest seed is actually an orchid and would not be considered a grain.

There are smaller grains than the mustard but that would be akin to us demanding Jesus stop teaching His theology and start teaching about teff seeds in Africa (or whatever is discovered to be smaller grains now).

I believe God uses these verses to illuminate a light on our hearts and will our hearts harden over such a minute factoid? Or will we put our hands to the plow and remain faithful in His ministry through us?

So was Jesus ignorant?

The Gospel of Luke says that there was a tax that went out all over the world. Of all people, Calvinists should not insist that world or earth means the whole earth.

 

[No Other Name]

I think a parable is simply a story that conveys a truth? But that doesn’t mean it has to be a made-up story, I don’t believe. My language has been a bit sloppy, but I didn’t mean to say I *know the stories of Lazarus or the prodigal son were historically true, but just that we don’t have to assume they’re not true, unless there’s a theological reason we should.

This is definitely a rabbit trail taking away from the OP! Sorry.

It's not that far removed since the OP is talking about streaming movies and the truths conveyed in fiction are important to line up with Biblical truth, and what better barometer than the parables of our Lord which makes our deep dive of their meaning and definition so vital to us all.

 

[Pergamum]

It's not that far removed since the OP is talking about streaming movies and the truths conveyed in fiction are important to line up with Biblical truth, and what better barometer than the parables of our Lord which makes our deep dive of their meaning and definition so vital to us all.

I like the Puritanboard BECAUSE of the Rabbit Trails...not DESPITE them.

 

[No Other Name]

So was Jesus ignorant?

I said:

"for Jesus to stop teaching His theology and start teaching about teff seeds in Africa (or whatever is discovered to be smaller grains now)."

That is an implied negative to your query here.

 

[Request-Deleted member 11775]

This is getting into a whole other topic about how to understand certain general statements of scripture, and denying their truthfulness undermines the inspiration and inerrancy of scripture.

“And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Cæsar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭2:1‬ ‭

the verse is not false, it just doesn’t mean literally every human in the whole world. Same applies to the mustard seed. Often the Holy Spirit (and Christ too) uses superlative or hyperbolic language to emphasise something, and the key is the context.

 

[RamistThomist]

If I tell my wife to buy the largest bottle of peanut butter while I am at Wal-Mart I don't mean the largest bottle of Peanut Butter in the whole world that has ever existed in the history of the world anywhere, but only at Wal-Mart during my shopping trip. The Mustard Seed was the smallest seed that local farmers planted in their gardens where Jesus lived. To say otherwise is to say that Jesus is wrong.

I agree. My point was that we shouldn't be overly pedantic about parables. Jesus is telling a parable to illustrate a truth. Trying to anchor the parables in 1:1 facticity is to largely miss the point.

 

[No Other Name]

and denying their truthfulness undermines the inspiration of scripture.

No one is denying their truthfulness nor undermining the divine inspiration, infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture.

it just doesn’t mean literally every human in the whole world. Same applies to the mustard seed.

Yes. Exactly. Again to echo my previous point, I believe God uses these verses with sweeping qualifiers to illuminate a light on our hearts and will our hearts harden over such a minute pedantic point as unbelievers do, putting their fingers in their ears and claiming that the immediate audience should not matter compared to the widespread audience through history? Or will we put our hands to the plow and remain faithful in His ministry through us?

 

[iainduguid]

Can we stipulate that the Bible has some stories that are clearly fictional in their form, even if the truth they point to is real - whether we call them parables, fables, riddles or something else? Jotham's fable in Judges 9 would be one example, the tale of the eagles in Ezekiel 17 is another, while the prophet's story in 1 Kings 20:37-42 certainly seems to involve a form of acting? Those might provide better examples to discuss to get at the real issues that are at stake here.

 

[Request-Deleted member 11775]

Can we stipulate that the Bible has some stories that are clearly fictional in their form, even if the truth they point to is real - whether we call them parables, fables, riddles or something else? Jotham's fable in Judges 9 would be one example, the tale of the eagles in Ezekiel 17 is another, while the prophet's story in 1 Kings 20:37-42 certainly seems to involve a form of acting? Those might provide better examples to discuss to get at the real issues that are at stake here.

The point is that there is truth signified in parables, whereas in fiction or acting most often there is no truth either literally or figuratively and the actors don’t actually mean anything they are saying, neither literally nor figuratively.

On 1 Kings 20 Poole points out,

“Thy servant went out: this following relation is not an untruth, but a parable; a usual way of instruction in the eastern parts, and ancient times, and most fit for this occasion, wherein an obscure prophet was to speak to a great king; whose ears were tender, and impatient of a downright reproof, and exceeding partial in his own cause;”

 

[Tom Hart]

The point is that there is truth signified in parables, whereas in fiction or acting most often there is no truth either literally or figuratively and the actors don’t actually mean anything they are saying.

“Most often”? And what about other times? What if an author is making a point? Or an actor really wants to get a message across?

The Pilgrim’s Progress has been mentioned. I’m not clear on where that fits in according to your scheme.

Or take Hamlet’s famous soliloquy: “To be or not to be.” Shakespeare does get his audience thinking on death and eternity.

 

[Tom Hart]

There are just so many problems that arise when you say “fiction is bad.” You’ll end up needing to produce countless qualifications in order to try to dig yourself out of the apparent absurdity. It gets to the point where you have a four-page thread on the Puritanboard and you’re no closer to a resolution.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

I’m not clear on where that fits in according to tour scheme.

tour scheme or your scheme?

 

[Request-Deleted member 11775]

There are just so many problems that arise when you say “fiction is bad.” You’ll end up needing to produce countless qualifications in order to try to dig yourself out of the apparent absurdity. It gets to the point where you have a four-page thread on the Puritanboard and you’re no closer to a resolution.

We don’t treat other subjects this way. How many pages have been written to clear the difficulties and objections to other issues of biblical interpretation and application, such as transubstantiation, to name just one example of many? More than 4 pages as you know yourself. Pilgrims progress is meant to signify real and true things, as was said before. Half the 4 pages is probably just repetition or clarification to be fair, besides discussing tangential side-issues.

 

[No Other Name]

whereas in fiction or acting most often there is no truth either literally or figuratively and the actors don’t actually mean anything they are saying, neither literally nor figuratively.

All seriousness here: is it possible that you simply have never encountered good books or movies in your life?

I mean, if you limit yourself because one unfortunate day you happened to turn on the TV and see Real Housewives or rent a movie and see Jacka-- or things like that then I think you'd have nothing but agreement and amens from us all around on those categories of media.

I could see why you would develop a worldview on fiction and acting like you espouse here if that was the backstory.

 

[Request-Deleted member 11775]

All seriousness here: is it possible that you simply have never encountered good books or movies in your life?

I mean, if you limit yourself because one unfortunate day you happened to turn on the TV and see Real Housewives or rent a movie and see Jacka-- or things like that then I think you'd have nothing but agreement and amens from us all around on those categories of media.

I’m sorry but that has nothing to do with the point of anything said in the comment quoted . “Good” or “bad” in the sense you’re describing is altogether not the point, the point is the truthfulness of it.

 

[Pergamum]

tour scheme or your scheme?

I would love to experience a Tour Scheme. Sounds fun.

 

[No Other Name]

I’m sorry but that has nothing to do with the point of anything said in the comment quoted . “Good” or “bad” in the sense you’re describing is altogether not the point, the point of the truthfulness of it.

You said:

in fiction or acting most often there is no truth either literally or figuratively and the actors don’t actually mean anything they are saying, neither literally nor figuratively.

This is patently untrue. From Shakespeare to Dostoyevsky to Mark Twain to Robert Louis Stevenson (I LOVE Treasure Island and Jekyll and Hyde was one of the first stories to make me think of a sin nature inside me) and so many more including films like another thread about a chocolate factory hahaha

If you value these things less than the Bible, I am WITH you. Nothing edifies or is worth my life's blood, sweat and tears to pore over than Holy Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. It is the ONLY book I will read cover to cover over and over all the days of my life.

But you have no value at all in general fiction. Ok, that's fine. But you claim there is NO value there at all. And that is where you are mistaken, my brother in the Lord.

 

[Request-Deleted member 11775]

You said:



This is patently untrue. From Shakespeare to Dostoyevsky to Mark Twain to Robert Louis Stevenson (I LOVE Treasure Island and Jekyll and Hyde was one of the first stories to make me think of a sin nature inside me) and so many more including films like another thread about a chocolate factory hahaha

If you value these things less than the Bible, I am WITH you. Nothing edifies or is worth my life's blood, sweat and tears to pore over than Holy Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. It is the ONLY book I will read cover to cover over and over all the days of my life.

But you have no value at all in general fiction. Ok, that's fine. But you claim there is NO value there at all. And that is where you are mistaken, my brother in the Lord.

Yeah I don’t see where you’ve got this idea about value coming into the discussion, the point is whether there’s any truthfulness in the things said, figuratively true, or literally true. I thought we were discussing these things in relation to the 9th commandment, maintaining and promoting truth.

 

[No Other Name]

I forgot Alexandre Dumas wrote one of my all-time favorite novels in The Count of Monte Cristo.

I also am going to pick up some early pulp stuff online free in the public domain. Zorro, The Shadow, and Doc Savage.

 

[No Other Name]

Yeah I don’t see where you’ve got this idea about value coming into the discussion, the point is whether there’s any truthfulness in the things said, figuratively true, or literally true. I thought we were discussing these things in relation to the 9th commandment, maintaining and promoting truth.

Value due to truth. You said fiction most often has no truth at all. I am saying that statement is patently untrue. These stories do have truths and hence value which I find and you do not find.

Again, you need not value their truths (and certainly never over Scripture, never) but you find NO value in them because you claim they have no truth at all. You are mistaken, my brother in the Lord.

 

[Request-Deleted member 11775]

Value due to truth. You said fiction most often has no truth at all. I am saying that statement is patently untrue. These stories do have truths and hence value which I find and you do not find.

Again, you need not value their truths (and certainly never over Scripture, never) but you find NO value in them because you claim they have no truth at all. You are mistaken, my brother in the Lord.

The fact that some true things are mixed together with falsehood doesn’t remove all the falsehood. That’s the problem.

 

[Tom Hart]

tour scheme or your scheme?

That was meant to be “your.” Corrected now.

 

[Tom Hart]

We don’t treat other subjects this way. How many pages have been written to clear the difficulties and objections to other issues of biblical interpretation and application, such as transubstantiation, to name just one example of many? More than 4 pages as you know yourself. Pilgrims progress is meant to signify real and true things, as was said before. Half the 4 pages is probably just repetition or clarification to be fair, besides discussing tangential side-issues.

The point is not that we are talking time to discuss it. It is that it is unfruitful, and made up of increasingly intricate qualifications, to the point that it is just too much to take in. From what I gather, you yourself have not worked out the implications of your position. That means that so much of what we are discussing is just going nowhere.

We are not talking about transubstantiation, no, nor are we discussing the ordo salutis or some other clearly defined doctrine. We are going round and round on an issue where definitions have not been agreed upon, where assumptions have been made without necessary qualifications, where qualifications have been suddenly and arbitrarily introduced, and where serious challenges are not being answered.

 

[Logan]

I think it still needs to be established that acting (or fiction) is lying. I think that's the unproven assumption being made here.

The storyteller and the audience have an unspoken contract that essentially says "we both know this isn't real". I don't know where the falsehood could possibly be when all involved know exactly what it actually is.

I would suspect that documentaries that purport to be true but fudge with the facts or make a historical figure seem more or less sympathetic would be far more likely to be 9th commandment violations than obvious fiction. I'm sure @Reformed Covenanter can vouch for the danger of that in his field!

 

[Tom Hart]

I tell my son bedtime stories which I make up myself. Knights and dragons and that sort of thing. He loves it. Ought we to tell our kids, “Sorry! No more stories! That is, unless they meet these criteria:…”?