A capella EP and... Raising Hands in Worship?

We have some who yell Amen in the middle of a prayer, or moo loudly in agreement, or mutter "yes." It's very distracting for the people hearing and for the man praying, and the chief offender, we know from his character, does it to attract attention to himself. I find a genteel amen at the end of a prayer does the job, without turning the entire prayer into a flying circus of who can moo the most loudly. It's really inconsiderate.
 
MW said:
Only males are to pray vocally in the assembly. And in traditional presbyterian practice it is the minister who offers prayer on behalf of the congregation. He also blesses the people in the name of the Lord with his hands lifted up.
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Interesting. So you think where it says "males", it means pastors?
 
MW said:
No, I think it means males; I am applying it to pastors in our context where we have a settled order.
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Why is not having that way considered disorder?

1Co 14:29-32 KJV 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 
CovenantPatriot87 said:
Why is not having that way considered disorder?

1Co 14:29-32 KJV 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
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Timothy was an evangelist who was set in place to establish order, like Titus.

1 Cor. 14 still envisages the practice of the charismata, which was to cease according to chap. 13.
 
MW said:
No, I think it means males; I am applying it to pastors in our context where we have a settled order.
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So do you think that's an appeal to tradition rather than Scripture? I also think women praying was normal:

‭1 Corinthians 11:5
but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven.

I think this is where we just need to let the Bible speak for itself, without imposing any of our preferences or traditions. As I said, I think when Paul referred to men raising holy hands, this isn't a restriction to only men. It's like this proverb: "A wise son makes a glad father, but a foolish man despises his mother." Obviously a wise son makes a glad mother as well.

The point is that it was normal for men to lift hands in worship. I think that's the starting point, and if men are against that, I think they need to rethink what the Bible says.
 
Ryan&Amber2013 said:
So do you think that's an appeal to tradition rather than Scripture? I think women praying was normal:

‭1 Corinthians 11:5
but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven.

I think this is where we just need to let the Bible speak for itself, without imposing any of our preferences or traditions. As I said, I think when Paul referred to men raising holy hands, this isn't a restriction to only men. It's like this proverb: "A wise son makes a glad father, but a foolish man despises his mother." Obviously why son makes a glad mother as well.

The point is that it was normal for men to lift hands in worship. I think that's the starting point, and if men are against that, I think they need to rethink what the Bible says.
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The Bible needs to be interpreted. The way you allow the Bible to speak for itself really just means making the Bible reaffirm your preconceived ideas.

The law of God forbids women to speak, 1 Cor. 14:34. The passage in chap. 11 is addressing subjection to men. She must not pray or prophecy in the mixed assembly with men because it would require her to remove her covering, which would dishonour her head.
 
MW said:
The Bible needs to be interpreted. The way you allow the Bible to speak for itself really just means making the Bible reaffirm your preconceived ideas.

The law of God forbids women to speak, 1 Cor. 14:34. The passage in chap. 11 is addressing subjection to men. She must not pray or prophecy in the mixed assembly with men because it would require her to remove her covering, which would dishonour her head.
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I know it's a rabbit trail, but here's a snippet from 9marks:

Again, Paul is not against women speaking altogether. He acknowledges that they are praying out loud and prophesying out loud in the assembly (1 Cor. 11:5). He simply does not want them to evaluate prophecies in the assembly because that would violate the headship norm.

This ties into teaching as well. Paul didn't tell the women not to pray or prophesy. I think you're trying to make conclusions based on points Paul wasn't making. Granted, what you're saying is well thought out, but I just don't see it.
 
Ryan&Amber2013 said:
I know it's a rabbit trail, but here's a snippet from 9marks:

Again, Paul is not against women speaking altogether. He acknowledges that they are praying out loud and prophesying out loud in the assembly (1 Cor. 11:5). He simply does not want them to evaluate prophecies in the assembly because that would violate the headship norm.

This ties into teaching as well. Paul didn't tell the women not to pray or prophesy. I think you're trying to make conclusions based on points Paul wasn't making. Granted, what you're saying is well thought out, but I just don't see it.
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Paul doesn't say that women are doing this. He sets it forth as something shameful when they do this. 1 Cor. 11:5, "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven." 9marks misses the point. The point is that such an action would require her to remove her headcovering and this dishonours her head.
 
MW said:
Paul doesn't say that women are doing this. He sets it forth as something shameful when they do this. 1 Cor. 11:5, "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven." 9marks misses the point. The point is that such an action would require her to remove her headcovering and this dishonours her head.
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Are you sure Paul is saying women aren't praying in worship, and says it's shameful if they do? See how the NLT puts verse 13:

‭1 Corinthians 11:13
[13] Judge for yourselves. Is it right for a woman to pray to God in public without covering her head?

Paul didn't say "is it right for a woman to pray to God in public?" His whole point is to do it with a covering over her head, not that she can't pray.

If we can't at least agree on that, I humbly bow out of this one.
 
To be clear, by praying in this context, the apostle means praying in tongues. How you "apply" that to congregational prayer is another thing, but as a matter of interpretation the context of chap. 14 is essential and must not be ignored. Praying and prophesying are manifestations of the Spirit in the midst of the congregation. In chap. 14 Paul forbids "speaking." The "speaking" throughout the chapter has reference to praying and prophesying, 1 Cor. 14:2, 3.

V. 13 makes the very point I was making. The issue is that she would have to be uncovered when she prays. This would not be comely.

Now note v. 2, "Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you." Contrast v. 17. Presumably the apostle thinks they were following the ordinance he gave them.
 
Steve Curtis said:
So, forget about raising hands when singing, since several have tied the act to prayer. I would be interested to know how many of the participants in this thread *do* raise their hands in prayer. (Just saying that the pastor does, doesn't count!)
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Ryan&Amber2013 said:
Me! I have a feeling the numbers will be slim, though.
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Are you imagining this as someone, in the middle of the church service, randomly raising up his hands while the pastor is praying?

When I am praying alone, it has happened that I raised my hands in prayer. Not even having any specific thought behind it, just half-conciously choosing that posture. That is one thing. But in the middle of the church service, when I am not the one actually uttering the words, I don't think this verse gives a warrant for that (not to mention how distracting it could be for everyone behind me or next to me).
 
Ben Zartman said:
We have some who yell Amen in the middle of a prayer, or moo loudly in agreement, or mutter "yes." It's very distracting for the people hearing and for the man praying, and the chief offender, we know from his character, does it to attract attention to himself. I find a genteel amen at the end of a prayer does the job, without turning the entire prayer into a flying circus of who can moo the most loudly. It's really inconsiderate.
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That certainly is distracting! What is mooing by the way? This kind of thing definitely seems a more culturally acceptable thing in the US, but this is common in more charismatic circles in the UK.
Steve Curtis said:
I would be interested to know how many of the participants in this thread *do* raise their hands in prayer.
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I only ever do this in personal prayer. The other contexts that seem right to me based on my understanding of the Scriptures (largely the Timothy text as discussed) are for the minister in corporate worship and for the man over a household in family devotions.
 
TylerRay said:
Regarding the first question, I'd simply say that, as with any given passage of Scripture, statements in the Psalms must be interpreted in context. That includes the consideration of whether the action referenced is an aspect of ceremonial worship. These things take wisdom, and are not always easy.

Regarding the references you bring up, I don't see why they can't all be understood as references to prayer. The psalmist speaks of praise, but it is not necessary to understand him as speaking of sung praise. We praise, or bless, God in prayer as well.

We know from other portions of Scripture that uplifted hands are an aspect of the formal posture of public prayer. There is no difficulty understanding the passages cited in this way. The burden of proof would be on those who argue 1) for uplifted hands being a part of the formal posture for singing, or 2) that we are warranted to spontaneously lift our hands during various parts of public worship.
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I am in compete agreement that the verses cited implicate prayer.
But my argument is surely they also implicate sung praise, since praise and prayer is expressed through singing in corporate worship.

It seems to come back down to a difference of interpretation of the regulative principle.

My view is that the Scriptures make room for all kinds of posture in the devotions of a believer provided all things are done orderly for the sake of the body as a whole as has been discussed. As part of this I would not wish to forbid (or even give a suggestion of frowning upon) a believer from raising their hands as part of their expression of devotion.
 
alexanderjames said:
I am in compete agreement that the verses cited implicate prayer.
But my argument is surely they also implicate sung praise, since praise and prayer is expressed through singing in corporate worship.
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No, they don't 'surely implicate sung praise'. They speak of praise, simpliciter. What mode of praise is a question of interpretation, and must be determined based on the whole counsel of God. If I say, 'I praised God when [x providence] happened', it does not implicate that I both prayed and sang praise.

alexanderjames said:
My view is that the Scriptures make room for all kinds of posture in the devotions of a believer provided all things are done orderly for the sake of the body as a whole as has been discussed. As part of this I would not wish to forbid (or even give a suggestion of frowning upon) a believer from raising their hands as part of their expression of devotion.
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Can you demonstrate your view from Scripture? I think it's quite clear from Scripture that God regulates worship posture.
 
alexanderjames said:
That certainly is distracting! What is mooing by the way? This kind of thing definitely seems a more culturally acceptable thing in the US, but this is common in more charismatic circles in the UK.

I only ever do this in personal prayer. The other contexts that seem right to me based on my understanding of the Scriptures (largely the Timothy text as discussed) are for the minister in corporate worship and for the man over a household in family devotions.
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"Mooing" is what I call the loud "hrrrmmm"-ing noise the distractors make in affirmation in the middle of someone else's prayer. It's not a word; it's just a noise so that everyone knows that they, at least, are listening, and are enthusiastically in favor of being recognized so to do.
 
MW said:
Yes, it should. V. 12, "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." This includes prayer.
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If it includes prayer, this would mean that Paul contradicts himself in 1Cor 11 when he commands women to cover while praying and prophesying in the context of corporate gatherings.
 
GospelAdorned said:
If it includes prayer, this would mean that Paul contradicts himself in 1Cor 11 when he commands women to cover while praying and prophesying in the context of corporate gatherings.
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Do Paul’s words imply the woman is leading prayer/speaking aloud?
 
Ryan&Amber2013 said:
‭Psalm 47:1
Clap your hands, all peoples! Shout to God with loud songs of joy!


‭1 Timothy 2:8 ESV‬
I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;

The way I see it, these things are good and healthy for God's people, and are something God desires for us to do. I also think decency and in order is a very subjective term. In our congregation, some people raise hands, some don't, some people shout amen during the sermon, some don't. Our worship is still very reverent and God exalting. And I wouldn't say anybody is distracted or putting the focus on themselves. I think people who want worship to basically have no physical expression will use the term decency and in order to try to restrict any physical expression. I totally don't see that when examining the bible.
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Hearkening back to this, if we use all the commandments of the Psalms literally in modern worship, we are breaking the regulative principle, as it commands us to praise God with harp and ten-stringed instruments. As this is an a-cappella EP thread, I hope I don’t get any grief for mentioning this, but musical instruments are Levitical and ceremonial - the Holy Spirit now is among us and our Mediator Christ perfects our worship that falls so far short from what would be appropriate to God. A minister even pointed out in family worship that the ten-stringed instrument is the moral law (how it is still applicable).
 
GospelAdorned said:
If it includes prayer, this would mean that Paul contradicts himself in 1Cor 11 when he commands women to cover while praying and prophesying in the context of corporate gatherings.
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Women, and all in attendance including children, should be praying along with the male leading the corporate prayers. But the leading of corporate prayer is restricted to men.
 
EmilyF said:
Hearkening back to this, if we use all the commandments of the Psalms literally in modern worship, we are breaking the regulative principle, as it commands us to praise God with harp and ten-stringed instruments. As this is an a-cappella EP thread, I hope I don’t get any grief for mentioning this, but musical instruments are Levitical and ceremonial - the Holy Spirit now is among us and our Mediator Christ perfects our worship that falls so far short from what would be appropriate to God. A minister even pointed out in family worship that the ten-stringed instrument is the moral law (how it is still applicable).
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Thank you for the thoughts. I think the argument you make for no instruments is a huge stretch. I think there's a good philosophy built around not having instruments, but I don't think a plain reading of the Bible indicates that. For example, Psalm 150. This isn't restrictive to Temple worship, and includes anywhere. I think the idea of a plethora of instruments is that we are free to use what we have to praise God.

But as for raising hands, there is good biblical support for such a practice outside of the Psalms as well.

Psalm 150:1-6
[1] Praise the Lord! Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens! [2] Praise him for his mighty deeds; praise him according to his excellent greatness! [3] Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp! [4] Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! [5] Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals! [6] Let everything that has breath praise the Lord! Praise the Lord!
 
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