Who are the "Jews"?

[Andrew P.C.]

Note the way "Israel" is used in Romans 9-11.

9:6, "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

9:27, "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:"


The name is uniformly used of the covenanted nation of Israel in contrast to the Gentiles throughout the passage. It would be very odd if it changed its meaning to include the Gentiles in the resolution of v. 26, especially given the fact that v. 25 continues to distinguish Israel and the Gentiles and v. 26 quotes an Old Testament text which is immediately connected with the covenanted nation.

I am curious as of how this can be so, given that it would be contradictory of Paul to say, "They are not all physical Jews which are of Physical Jews". This wouldn't make sense. There is a contrast in that passage. The first Israel is not the second. So when you say "uniformly", I would have to disagree and so would Calvin. John Calvin writes this regarding the use of Israel in verse 6 of Chapter 9:

But when he says, that all who are of Israel are not Israelites, and that all who are of the seed of Abraham are not children, it is a kind of change in the meaning of words, (παρονομασία); for in the first clause he includes the whole race, in the second he refers only to true sons, who were not become degenerated.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

A few thoughts here . . . to take exception to a small portion of Pastor Bruce’s excellent post (#8), some folks do falsely claim title to the name Israel (such as the state with that name) without warrant, for as Paul said, “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel... but the children of the promise are counted for the seed” (Rom 9:6, 8).

I see no promise in Scripture that a massive return of ethnic Jews to Messiah will occur at the age’s end, though there has indeed been a massive (could one but see) return throughout the NT church age, myself being one.

Richard, remember, when Paul used the term “Israel after the flesh” the temple was still standing, so there was such a nation albeit renegade against the Giver of that name to Jacob; nay, not only renegade but traitor complicit with the arch-demon to murder the Giver. No longer was it true of the apostate nation regarding the name given, “Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men” (Gen 32:28), rather Ichabod. Then the temple was destroyed and the nation disbanded and scattered. An imposter resides in the land of Palestine. Why is it there? It may be a threshing floor unto judgment, or blessing, or both – I do not know.

It has been said of this nation, “the State of Israel”, that it is “a one-bomb nation”, meaning only one nuclear detonation would be sufficient to utterly eradicate it from the face of the earth, unlike the United States, which would need many hundreds – or even a couple of thousands – of megatons to so eradicate it. In the days to come nothing is so “sacred” as to be untouchable, not even God’s elect nation, of which it is written we shall be “hated of all men” (Matt 10:22; 24:9), and “For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter” (Rom 8:36) – so there is no guarantee whatsoever as to the continuance of the apostate nation.

As for the genuine Israel – who only is Christ Jesus, and all those who are in Him – even today they are slaughtered, women (grandmas and little girls included), children, old men and boys, pastors and elders, in many countries around the world; there the “problem of Christians” (the Israel of God) is being “solved” by the arch-fiend, and it is coming to the West quickly. Our women have cause to be afraid of the teaching and preaching of Revelation – we have become so soft and complacent a church – but it is the cost we must daily count in Muslim, Hindu, Communist, &etc countries; they know that to name Christ may be to seal a death warrant.

Remember what Paul said, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh” (Rom 1:28; cf Jer 9:25-26). We do better hearkening to God’s naming than man’s.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

but were The Great Southland of The Holy Spirit, its all written down there in The Book,right , isn't it?

I think I have outwitted you my Aussie friend. Southland is a province of New Zealand. No State of Australia is called Southland. Correct?

 

[Scott1]

This is a somewhat perplexing question and I too am reading these posts thinking this through, particularly post#8.

It is striking that at the time of our Lord, the northern Kingdom of Israel had long ago split off and been absorbed into the Assyrian empire and was so intermixed with gentiles, the Assyrians, that the Samaritans were already not considered Jewish by the Israelites of our Lord's Day. Yet, they were perhaps 50/50 Jew and Gentile, with many variations. And their religion was a mixture of Judaism and paganism of the Gentiles. And the Jews had no dealings with them. (John 4:9).

Yet, in our time, people who ostensibly have less than 50% Jewish blood sometimes consider themselves Jewish. One famous American politician had one cousin who if purely Jewish would have made them about 1/7 Jewish proclaimed themselves Jewish at an opportune time in their political career.

I think that while the Jewish people have always been greatly mixed, and are very much so today, there still is enough of an ethnic and cultural identity to be called a separate people, one who God is dealing with. Not the only one, certainly not the center of His attention now that Christ has gone to the nations in accordance with the plan from the beginning, yet one people nonetheless.

In this lies the grain of truth in dispensationalism but also its giant structural error. It's why dispensationalism is off base.

When the New Testament refers to Israel it is referring to spiritual Israel, Jews and Gentiles sometimes, and in other places, it refers to a people who still retain an ethnic and cultural identity.

It also strikes me that that the animosity toward them today, even through their pride, hypocrisy, etc. is really a strike at God because of the legacy of His dealing with them as a nation in the past. That's why we must somehow, be supportive of them as a people, imperfect even as that description may be.

And be grateful for what God did among them.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

I think what you say is true, Scott. We must be supportive of ethnic Jewry, and of the Jewish state, while, on the one hand decrying its injustices, and on the other reminding it of its illustrious past and forsaken heritage, which may indeed be regained.

We should recall what Paul also said, "salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them [the Jews] to jealousy" (Rom 11:11), and how is that? To talk of the new temple of living stones, the High Priest who cleanses with His own shed blood (the true Passover Lamb), the last and true exodus from slavery (to sin and guilt, eternal misery, the oppression of men, the fear of pain and death, of needless suffering), and the approaching – yet commencing and present even today! – celebration in the temple at the Glory, the Shekinah, returned upon the people of God by the presence of the King, mighty Messiah Yeshua who shall tread down the nations of the wicked who love not God and despoil His earth and children.

There are likely many among ethnic Jewry with ears to hear and hearts to understand that the old Law and temple service were typical of a genuine and pure spiritual worship to be revealed by Messiah in His prophesied New Covenant in the latter days. That the foretold glory of Israel has been bestowed upon even Gentiles who bow the knee to the greater Son of King David, and that this King is preparing New Jerusalem upon New Earth so that we may have fellowship not only with the OT saints, but with God Himself through Messiah – such a report may well make many a Jew take thought, and for a godly jealousy to obtain the glory lost in an ancient betrayal, to return in repentance with joy, as it is written,

Zechariah 12:10; 13:1 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. . .

In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.​

This may well have happened already in Acts 2:36-37 upon Peter’s preaching to the great crowd in Jerusalem, but I do not see it impossible the LORD will again pour forth the spirit of grace and supplications, and give to see Him whom they pierced, that they may have faith and repentance unto eternal life.

They are my people after the flesh, and I desire this for them, whosoever will.

 

[MW]

I am curious as of how this can be so, given that it would be contradictory of Paul to say, "They are not all physical Jews which are of Physical Jews". This wouldn't make sense. There is a contrast in that passage. The first Israel is not the second. So when you say "uniformly", I would have to disagree and so would Calvin. John Calvin writes this regarding the use of Israel in verse 6 of Chapter 9:

But when he says, that all who are of Israel are not Israelites, and that all who are of the seed of Abraham are not children, it is a kind of change in the meaning of words, (παρονομασία); for in the first clause he includes the whole race, in the second he refers only to true sons, who were not become degenerated.

Granted 9:6 is referring to an election within Israel and 9:27 to remnant Israel, it still requires a limitation to the covenanted nation and cannot in any sense be extended to include Gentiles. The point remains valid that to make "all Israel" include Gentiles in the last reference requires a sense which is at variance with the use of the name throughout chapters 9-11.

 

[NB3K]

Wouldn't the old testament Jews simply be the shadow of the Church. With the Church in it. But as a nation according to the flesh God has given her a decree of divorce because she has not held her part of the covenant at Mt. Sinai.

 

[Peairtach]

Wouldn't the old testament Jews simply be the shadow of the Church. With the Church in it. But as a nation according to the flesh God has given her a decree of divorce because she has not held her part of the covenant at Mt. Sinai.

The midwall of partition between believing Jews and Gentiles is broken down, and Gentile believers are no longer second class citizens in God's Kingdom and Church. The ceremonial system and Temple are at an end, along with the theocracy.

But the New Testament Jews who believe are the believing remnant of the Old Testament Jews, and they are joined by believing Gentiles to form the Church (the Israel of God).

Part of the message of Romans 9-11 is that God in His great mercy has not utterly forsaken the Jews otherwise (a) Why do they still exist? (b) Why is there a believing remnant among them and promised to be among them?

Some people here have said the Jews are difficult to identify, but is that not also the case for the Scots, Americans or Australians?

They are not the special nation in the same way that they they were, but they have that historical and covenantal link to the Patriarchs and to Christ.

God has also promised to have a remnant of true Israel among them.

The Gentiles in Christ are engrafted in among the believing remnant of Israel, to form the Church, the Israel of God.

Dispensationalism on the other hand teaches that the Jews and the Church are separate and distinct with different divine plans for both.

 

[Tirian]

They are not the special nation in the same way that they they were, but they have that historical and covenantal link to the Patriarchs and to Christ.

Those covenantal promises are true only in Christ though, so nationally this is no longer relevant. The covenant promises were always with the church, as represented by one nation in the previous dispensation, and no longer limited to any one nation in the current. That God has or will save a remnant from the previous should come as no surprise but should not direct us in any particular way now in terms of revere, preferential pastoral/financial care or evangelism.

 

[Peairtach]

That God has or will save a remnant from the previous should come as no surprise but should not direct us in any particular way now in terms of revere, preferential pastoral/financial care or evangelism.

I would have to disagree. Although it's clear from the Apostle Paul's teaching in Romans 9-11 that God will always have His believing people among the Jews as part of His covenantal commitment, it is in a sense surprising when we think of the events of the first century, and their rejection of Christ - as a whole - nationally.

The Apostle doesn't indicate that we should revere them, in the sense of thinking they're wonderful people merely because they're Jewish, in the same way that we think (or don't think) our brothers and sisters in Christ - Jewish or Gentile - are wonderful people.

But the Apostle still says that they are beloved for the sake of the fathers, and devoted some space in the Book of Romans under the inspiration of God to lay out the Jews' place vis-a-vis the Gentiles in NT redemptive history.

Of course there has been a severe and maybe understandable reaction to Dispensationalism in some Reformed circles in America and elsewhere to the idea that God has any particular plans for the Jews via-a-vis the Gentiles.

Clearly the Apostle was misinterpreted by many of the pre-Dispensationalist Reformers and Puritans. See e.g."The Puritan Hope" by Iain Murray



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[Scott1]

Very helpful.

A few thoughts below.

The midwall of partition between believing Jews and Gentiles is broken down, and Gentile believers are no longer second class citizens in God's Kingdom and Church. The ceremonial system and Temple are at an end, along with the theocracy.

But the New Testament Jews who believe are the believing remnant of the Old Testament Jews, and they are joined by believing Gentiles to form the Church (the Israel of God).

This makes sense, particularly in light of Galatians 6:16.

Part of the message of Romans 9-11 is that God in His great mercy has not utterly forsaken the Jews otherwise (a) Why do they still exist? (b) Why is there a believing remnant among them and promised to be among them?

That makes sense in light of a difficult to understand context here in Romans.

Some people here have said the Jews are difficult to identify, but is that not also the case for the Scots, Americans or Australians?

The identity of Jews is, I think, unique in world history in both quantity (length) and quality (identity, sometimes for persecution's sake). Small in number, like the Scots in that way, but with a recorded history and identity to the present unlike them. Certainly unlike the "Johnny come lately" Americans. (Of which I am proud to be one).

They are not the special nation in the same way that they they were, but they have that historical and covenantal link to the Patriarchs and to Christ.

Yes, and that what was I was thinking above. They do have an historical and covenantal link unlike any other.

And we know,
God did it.

God has also promised to have a remnant of true Israel among them.

My understanding is Mr. Edwards thought it would be the nation broadly speaking, Mr. Calvin thought it would be a remnant, however large or small that might be.

The Gentiles in Christ are engrafted in among the believing remnant of Israel, to form the Church, the Israel of God.

Dispensationalism on the other hand teaches that the Jews and the Church are separate and distinct with different divine plans for both.

Yes, and this is huge error because it affects the way we view the whole of Scripture. Dispensationalism is an artificial system imposed, as it were, from the mind of the creature, upon God's overall plan to redeem a people from every tribe, nation, kindred and tongue which initially involved a covenant people, Israel, as a vehicle toward that glorious end.

Very insightful post, Richard.

Thank you.

 

[Peairtach]

Scott

God has also promised to have a remnant of true Israel among them.

My understanding is Mr. Edwards thought it would be the nation broadly speaking, Mr. Calvin thought it would be a remnant, however large or small that might be.

I myself relatively confidently believe that the passage teaches that at some point the Jewish nation as a whole will embrace Christ, but some don't see that there, so I was limiting myself to what could be more easily agreed among us i.e. that God has allowed the Jewish people to continue in existence, and that the Apostle here promises that there will always be at least a small part of them who are of the Israel of God, the Church.

 

[One Little Nail]

Scott

God has also promised to have a remnant of true Israel among them.

My understanding is Mr. Edwards thought it would be the nation broadly speaking, Mr. Calvin thought it would be a remnant, however large or small that might be.

I myself relatively confidently believe that the passage teaches that at some point the Jewish nation as a whole will embrace Christ, but some don't see that there, so I was limiting myself to what could be more easily agreed among us i.e. that God has allowed the Jewish people to continue in existence, and that the Apostle here promises that there will always be at least a small part of them who are of the Israel of God, the Church.

that seems to be be my understanding of it, that a large portion or even a national repentance which seems more likely will
occur, though the only problem seems to be a matter of timing,

can I suggest that it will occur at or immediately preceding The Second Coming of The Lord Jesus Christ,
if the coming of The Lord mentioned in 2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, is the bona fide Second Coming & not just a general judgment coming like AD70 Jerusalem was (Matt 24)

then it will mean a fulfilment of an Old Testament Prophecy Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn,
which seems to be hinted at here in Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. if this be
The Glorious Appearance of Our Great God,& Saviour then it will be at the 2nd Coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ that this
national repentance & awakening of the Jews will occur as the Text seems to suggest.

 

[MW]

I believe Romans 11 is providing a missionary vision rather than a programme of events. Difficulty in interpretation arises over our failure to perceive that the normal state of affairs for ourselves were still in process of development in the NT. The apostle's eschatology is often doing nothing more than explaining the process towards full Gentile inclusion which we now take for granted. In Romans 11 the movement in the unfolding purpose of God from Jew to Gentile is explained so as to ensure that the hardening of the Jews is not perceived by the Romans as if God had for ever cast them off or that there was no mercy for them in the Gospel.

 

[KMK]

In Romans 11 the movement in the unfolding purpose of God from Jew to Gentile is explained so as to ensure that the hardening of the Jews is not perceived by the Romans as if God had for ever cast them off or that there was no mercy for them in the Gospel.

This would jibe well with the way Paul seems to weave back and forth between his Gentile and Jewish readers in Rome.

 

[Peairtach]

Scott

God has also promised to have a remnant of true Israel among them.

My understanding is Mr. Edwards thought it would be the nation broadly speaking, Mr. Calvin thought it would be a remnant, however large or small that might be.

I myself relatively confidently believe that the passage teaches that at some point the Jewish nation as a whole will embrace Christ, but some don't see that there, so I was limiting myself to what could be more easily agreed among us i.e. that God has allowed the Jewish people to continue in existence, and that the Apostle here promises that there will always be at least a small part of them who are of the Israel of God, the Church.

that seems to be be my understanding of it, that a large portion or even a national repentance which seems more likely will
occur, though the only problem seems to be a matter of timing,

can I suggest that it will occur at or immediately preceding The Second Coming of The Lord Jesus Christ,
if the coming of The Lord mentioned in 2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, is the bona fide Second Coming & not just a general judgment coming like AD70 Jerusalem was (Matt 24)

then it will mean a fulfilment of an Old Testament Prophecy Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn,
which seems to be hinted at here in Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. if this be
The Glorious Appearance of Our Great God,& Saviour then it will be at the 2nd Coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ that this
national repentance & awakening of the Jews will occur as the Text seems to suggest.

I tend to believe that there will be a Jewish national conversion long before the end of the age which will be associated with great Gospel blessing for the Gentiles, even greater blessing than has been experienced in the 2,000 years since their general apostasy. If the conversion of the Jews happened at the end there would be no time for this blessing to be outworked in history.

I don't really see how II Thessalonians 2:8 is relevant since that is talking about Antichrist. The two issues don't logically relate or impinge on one another.

Hypothetically speaking, the Papacy could fall before the conversion of the Jews, or long outlast the conversion of the Jews even to the end of the world.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

 

[MW]

I don't really see how II Thessalonians 2:8 is relevant since that is talking about Antichrist. The two issues don't logically relate or impinge on one another.

I take it that the man of sin passage is dealing with essentially the same "mystery" of reconstitution, but looked at from the perspective of "iniquity" rather than "salvation."

 

[Mushroom]

Rom 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: (29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Doesn't this mean that we are Jews, that are of the priesthood of believers?

 

[One Little Nail]

Scott

God has also promised to have a remnant of true Israel among them.

My understanding is Mr. Edwards thought it would be the nation broadly speaking, Mr. Calvin thought it would be a remnant, however large or small that might be.

I myself relatively confidently believe that the passage teaches that at some point the Jewish nation as a whole will embrace Christ, but some don't see that there, so I was limiting myself to what could be more easily agreed among us i.e. that God has allowed the Jewish people to continue in existence, and that the Apostle here promises that there will always be at least a small part of them who are of the Israel of God, the Church.

that seems to be be my understanding of it, that a large portion or even a national repentance which seems more likely will
occur, though the only problem seems to be a matter of timing,

can I suggest that it will occur at or immediately preceding The Second Coming of The Lord Jesus Christ,
if the coming of The Lord mentioned in 2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, is the bona fide Second Coming & not just a general judgment coming like AD70 Jerusalem was (Matt 24)

then it will mean a fulfilment of an Old Testament Prophecy Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn,
which seems to be hinted at here in Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. if this be
The Glorious Appearance of Our Great God,& Saviour then it will be at the 2nd Coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ that this
national repentance & awakening of the Jews will occur as the Text seems to suggest.

I tend to believe that there will be a Jewish national conversion long before the end of the age which will be associated with great Gospel blessing for the Gentiles, even greater blessing than has been experienced in the 2,000 years since their general apostasy. If the conversion of the Jews happened at the end there would be no time for this blessing to be outworked in history.

I don't really see how II Thessalonians 2:8 is relevant since that is talking about Antichrist. The two issues don't logically relate or impinge on one another.

Hypothetically speaking, the Papacy could fall before the conversion of the Jews, or long outlast the conversion of the Jews even to the end of the world.

Old Testament Prophecies are taken by The New Testament writers and given their proper interpretation, what I was trying to say here was that I believe the Zechariah 12:10 was given its true interpretation by The Apostle John by his use of the term pierce,in Revelation 1:7.

what I was speculating was whether the, cometh with the clouds, Rev 1:7 & ,the brightness of his coming, II Thess 2:8 was the Second Coming of The Lord Jesus Christ or just a coming in judgment,believing as I do that these 2 comings were one & the same event,

when you mentioned that the conversion of the jews was to be be associated with great Gospel blessing for the Gentiles,
you helped me remember that I was looking for that particular verse myself the other day & had forgotten,
as I believed that was its proper interpretation myself, this being its Post-Millennial interpretation!
it is Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

this interpretation is a spiritualising of the text , for the statement "life from the dead?" can refer to none other than the Resurrection of the Dead, and also "what shall the receiving of them be" denotes the calling of the jews does it not?

so this national calling of the jews "what shall the receiving of them be" is concurrently connected with the " life from the dead" or
Resurrection of the Dead, as the text seems to suggest which meshes with the previous statement in Rev 1:7 they that pierced
him shall see him or as Zechariah says they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, a seeing of & a looking upon denotes an evangelical faith response of the jews upon The Lord Jesus Christ the pierced one Psalm 22:16, while a mourning for him assumes an evangelical repentance unto life, does it not & Behold, he cometh with clouds; would speak
of his Second Coming would it not?

so to sum up it,it is my belief that the previous Scriptures that have been quoted point to a national awakening of the jews
at or immediately prior to The 2nd Coming of Our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[Tirian]

so to sum up it,it is my belief that the previous Scriptures that have been quoted point to a national awakening of the jews
at or immediately prior to The 2nd Coming of Our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ.

So these Jews are Jews because they can trace their genetics back to Abraham? If, God forbid, there was a Tsunami that wiped out all but 10 people that actually had that genetic descent saw Christ and mourned and converted when Christ returns - would that fulfil that scripture as you see it?

 

[Tirian]

Rom 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: (29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Doesn't this mean that we are Jews, that are of the priesthood of believers?

I think so. Does that mean we can start settling in Palestinian territory? (That is an obscure way of asking what to do with the land promises)

 

[Peairtach]

Rom 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: (29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Doesn't this mean that we are Jews, that are of the priesthood of believers?

Yes. Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ are truly Jews, according to the Apostle speaking under inspiration. But that does not mean that for the Apostle, equally speaking under inspiration, the apostate natural branches, the part of the Jewish nation that doesn't believe, ceases to exist, otherwise he wouldn't distinguish them as natural branches against which Gentile believers should not boast.

 

[MW]

The phrase, "to the Jew first," literally means what it says. While it is possible to extend the meaning so as to make it applicable to the visible church now that the Jews are no longer regarded as a covenant nation, in its natural context it indicates that there was still a distinction so far as the purpose of God and the apostolic witness was concerned. This would also be the case in relation to the statement relative to the inward and outward Jew. The terms must be understood in their historic context. While they can be extended to the condition of the visible church now, they must be interpreted according to their original ethnic significance when seeking to understand the specific meaning of the Epistle.

 

[One Little Nail]

so to sum up it,it is my belief that the previous Scriptures that have been quoted point to a national awakening of the jews
at or immediately prior to The 2nd Coming of Our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ.

So these Jews are Jews because they can trace their genetics back to Abraham? If, God forbid, there was a Tsunami that wiped out all but 10 people that actually had that genetic descent saw Christ and mourned and converted when Christ returns - would that fulfil that scripture as you see it?

It seems difficult to determine who the real Jews after the flesh are, there definitely is that spiritual/ physical Jew distinction were true believers Jew or gentile are true spiritual Jews , I've had this discussion with bob Mendelssohn of Jews for Jesus fame & said to him basically because we are in NT times that Gentiles who become Jews now for instance or during this economy arent real jews, like the Ashkenazi Jews as there of pure gentile stock, though while the Older Testament was in operation a gentile could/would be ingrafted upon believing,
but now that we're in the Christian Testament & Dispensation I don't think this rings true,
Though this is not gospel on my part & I'm willing to change that view if I can be shown from the Scriptures.

Regardless amongst the physical Jews of today there does exist the Jew after the flesh, the true physical jew who has yet to inheret the promises of national conversion.

So if there were only ten Jews left after a tsunami,
well I knew this woman who had a husband then he died & she married another, he also died,she also had 5 other husbands who all likewise died before her so at The Resurrection who's wife shall she be?
You question is abit like that, Matt, God is Sovereign & his Promises are yea & amen in Christ, His will cannot be thwarted
There are no hypotheticals with God He has ordained everything after the counsel of His will & it shall come to pass

 

[One Little Nail]

I think so. Does that mean we can start settling in Palestinian territory? (That is an obscure way of asking what to do with the land promises)

If you like anyplace has got to be better than Victoria haha

 

[Peairtach]

Rom 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: (29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Doesn't this mean that we are Jews, that are of the priesthood of believers?

I think so. Does that mean we can start settling in Palestinian territory? (That is an obscure way of asking what to do with the land promises)

Re the question of the Land, although that may merit a separate thread, it is clear from various New Testament Scriptures that Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ are in the process of inheriting the whole Earth, including Israel and Palestine. This will not be fully and completely and truly realised until the Eschaton, but is partially realised now.

If God in His Providence wishes to have some believing Jews and Arabs in that part of the world, then that will be, and is, the case.

Even under the typological Old Testament period, the Land promises to the Jews weren't unconditional. Even less so in the NT when the Land has lost its special typological staus, apart from the fact it is special as the historical homeland of the Jews, and where our Saviour lived.

The tensions between Jews and Arabs, and between believing Jews and Arabs, in that part of the world must be resolved ultimately politically, providing the needed peace and security for both sides.

Theology has precious little to do with it, and even if lots of Jews and Arabs were converted in that corner of the world, it might or might not move things on politically very much.