Jimmy the Greek
Puritan Board Senior
I see no scriptural basis for religious titles. Besides, pastor-teacher is a gift not an office. (Eph. 4:11)
Reverend vs. Pastor
- Thread starter N. Eshelman
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I Timothy 3.1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. The idea in Ephesians 4 is that the risen Christ has given gifts to his church i.e. men who are pastors and teachers.
Jimmy the Greek
Puritan Board Senior
The idea in Ephesians 4 is that the risen Christ has given gifts to his church i.e. men who are pastors and teachers.
I agree. My point was that even though we see Elder as an office, there is no example religious titles used -- and even so, pastor-teacher is not an office, but a gift. It is a gift we should expect in our Elders, if not a qualification. But there is no biblical warrant for designating one as the Pastor of a church.
Beside 1 Tim.3:1, I can say this: I have been "installed" in an office. The office exists, regardless of me. It belongs to the church. I am not "significant" enough to "create" this office or "own" this position. It is a privilege to be in this office. King Jesus has commissioned me an officer in his service.
The bolded statement is simply wrong, factually. Whatever you think of the extraordinary office of Apostle, versus the lesser ones, Paul, etc., certainly DID use the designation as a title.
The idea in Ephesians 4 is that the risen Christ has given gifts to his church i.e. men who are pastors and teachers.
I agree. My point was that even though we see Elder as an office, there is no example religious titles used -- and even so, pastor-teacher is not an office, but a gift. It is a gift we should expect in our Elders, if not a qualification. But there is no biblical warrant for designating one as the Pastor of a church.
JBaldwin
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Frankly, after having moved about in numerous religious circles over the years (everything from RCC to Reformed and almost everything in between), I have found that the title Rev. more often than not is used to put a person higher than everyone else, and this fosters an idea of class which I do not find biblical. While I don't mind a person using Rev. as a title. I refuse to call someone Rev. unless I am using the title in a formal sense.
Pastor is good, but I don't find that in the Scriptures either. I call my pastor by his first name, but when speaking of him to others, I call him Pastor Ron.
N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
Pastor is quite biblical:
Ephesians 4:11-16 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Just because Rome and others have misused it does not mean it is unbiblical or incorrect to use the term.
JBaldwin
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
The question in the OP is the title Rev. biblical. As it is used most often in many religious circles, I don't believe it is. Most of the time when it is used, especially in non-reformed circles, the title is used with the words "the" or "the most" as if this person was more right or more holy than the rest of us. While that is not the meaning of the word, that is how it is used.
If someone has earned that title by study, I will use it in correspondence or when writing their name in a formal setting to show recognition for what they have achieved, but I will not call someone that intentionally as it is too often misunderstood.
Wannabee
Obi Wan Kenobi
What have we "earned" that we were not given? Is not taking a title assuming recognition for what the Lord has actually done? Titles conferred out of respect show humility. Titles demanded because of achievement or status show pride.
My sons call me "dad," or sometimes "daddy."
My wife calls me dear, honey, sweetheart and a number of other things... mostly nice.
Some in the church call me Joe. Some call me pastor. Some know me better and call me knucklehead. Simply put, the title pastor should be earned by being one before one is called one; and then it should be out of recognition of a heart and character that typifies Christ; not because of one's vocational status/position/calling, etc.
My sons call me "dad," or sometimes "daddy."
My wife calls me dear, honey, sweetheart and a number of other things... mostly nice.
Some in the church call me Joe. Some call me pastor. Some know me better and call me knucklehead. Simply put, the title pastor should be earned by being one before one is called one; and then it should be out of recognition of a heart and character that typifies Christ; not because of one's vocational status/position/calling, etc.
Archlute
Puritan Board Senior
Agreed.
I think that the title of Bishop would be fine as well, since it is describing one of the functions of the office, but even though it is a more 'biblically accurate' term I could almost guarantee that most here who object to the term 'Reverend' would gladly take up calling their minister by the latter term before they would ever think about using the former.
Again, as has been noted, that kind of reaction is a result of the effects of history upon the conscience, rather than a proper grasp of one aspect of the office.
Poimen
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I use the term Pastor since I think that 'Reverend' could be easily misunderstood (that I am to be revered - I am thinking here mostly of non-Christians). However I usually sign my name as Rev. Daniel Kok.
We should note that there is a difference from receiving honour on the basis of the office as services performed on behalf of Christ, and taking that honour for oneself. The apostles were to be servants of all, but it did not stop them from asserting their office when it counted most. See 1 Corinthians 9.
We would do well to remember 1 Timothy 5:17:
"Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine."
There is a sense in which the teaching elder (pastor etc.) is to be treated with greater honour because of what he does: preaches God's Word - His mouthpiece and instrument. This however is from the Lord and thus ought to be received in humility and not arrogance and pride.
Authority, even in the secular world, is respected and maintained. How much more so for those who are in the kingdom of God!
We should note that there is a difference from receiving honour on the basis of the office as services performed on behalf of Christ, and taking that honour for oneself. The apostles were to be servants of all, but it did not stop them from asserting their office when it counted most. See 1 Corinthians 9.
We would do well to remember 1 Timothy 5:17:
"Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine."
There is a sense in which the teaching elder (pastor etc.) is to be treated with greater honour because of what he does: preaches God's Word - His mouthpiece and instrument. This however is from the Lord and thus ought to be received in humility and not arrogance and pride.
Authority, even in the secular world, is respected and maintained. How much more so for those who are in the kingdom of God!
What is important is that the members of a church recognize that a man has indeed filled the office, whatever it is called.
At my church there is an office of Pastor/TE/Rev/Minister and I happen to be the one in the office. I don't think it is that important for everyone to address me as such every time they talk to me as long as they accept me as holding the office.
We had a group of people years ago at my church who were glad to call me 'Pastor Ken' but by their actions and words it was obvious that they did not consider me to be their Pastor.
I got sick of it and told them that if they did not consider me to be their Pastor, then they needed to go find their Pastor at whatever church he is at. Needless to say, they left.
At my church there is an office of Pastor/TE/Rev/Minister and I happen to be the one in the office. I don't think it is that important for everyone to address me as such every time they talk to me as long as they accept me as holding the office.
We had a group of people years ago at my church who were glad to call me 'Pastor Ken' but by their actions and words it was obvious that they did not consider me to be their Pastor.
I got sick of it and told them that if they did not consider me to be their Pastor, then they needed to go find their Pastor at whatever church he is at. Needless to say, they left.
jaybird0827
PuritanBoard Honor Roll
I have always preferred "Rev." unless the pastor himself indicates "Please call me, ..."
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
apropo of nothing - I'd like to be called maestro 
apropo of nothing - I'd like to be called maestro
I am often called 'maestro' by my spanish speaking students.
Mushroom
Puritan Board Doctor
I can say that I call my first Reformed Teaching Elder Reverend without reservation, and without ever seeing his name written that way. He led me out of darkness into the light, and I love him. I don't agree in every way with everything he's ever said, but I heard him preach again two weeks ago after many years, and it reminded me of why he deserves more than double honor from me. I address him that way in public, although I know him as Bob when we are alone. My present Pastor I feel the same way about, but I confess that I have had Pastors that would have thought I was being sarcastic by using the title of Reverend. That was due to my own sin.
From the perspective of this commited layman, I have no problem with titles that connote honor, both because it reminds the sheep and the shepherd of the biblical importance of the office.
If I'm willing to call an American Judge "Your Honor", why would I chafe at addressing a man ordained by my Saviour to be my undershepherd with a title of honor?
From the perspective of this commited layman, I have no problem with titles that connote honor, both because it reminds the sheep and the shepherd of the biblical importance of the office.
If I'm willing to call an American Judge "Your Honor", why would I chafe at addressing a man ordained by my Saviour to be my undershepherd with a title of honor?
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
apropo of nothing - I'd like to be called maestro
I am often called 'maestro' by my spanish speaking students.
They must really respect you.
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Not really fancy, though... 
markkoller
Puritan Board Freshman
I use the title Rev. because I have grown weary of the abuse and disrespect that people show toward ministers of God's Word. Sadly, even people in the church do the same. The world today is ignorant of the office and has no respect toward anyone claiming to be an ordained minister. True, many ministers have abused the office and act foolish or whatever, but the office is one that we should all be working diligently to lift back to its proper place in society. We're the good guys, so we should be the ones winning back the respect of a fallen world.
Most objections that I have seen here and elsewhere are purely an opinion and usually these objections are by people who prefer church to be informal. I have nothing against those who want to wear blue jeans and Tshirts in the pulpit
, but please don't object to a perfectly fine and historically solid title that does nothing but honor those rightly ordained to a rightfully honorable position in the church.
By the way, most of us Revs are quite humble and see nothing in the title that is in any way prideful.
By the way, again, its hard for us pastors to be critical of all the people who fail to show us any respect (or people who dont care about our opinion) on anything if we wont at least insist on a title that is respectful.
Most objections that I have seen here and elsewhere are purely an opinion and usually these objections are by people who prefer church to be informal. I have nothing against those who want to wear blue jeans and Tshirts in the pulpit
, but please don't object to a perfectly fine and historically solid title that does nothing but honor those rightly ordained to a rightfully honorable position in the church. By the way, most of us Revs are quite humble
and see nothing in the title that is in any way prideful.By the way, again, its hard for us pastors to be critical of all the people who fail to show us any respect (or people who dont care about our opinion) on anything if we wont at least insist on a title that is respectful.
N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
Actually, my question was 'which is more BIBLICAL, not which one do you prefer.
I attend a church where most of the men wear suits, the minister reads from the King James version, he wears a Genevan gown... it is anything but bluejeans and such.
I just do not see the usage of 'Reverend' in the Scriptures or in our confessional statements (I am willing to be corrected though). I am not hard and fast against the term, but I see that pastor is a more biblical title given to the men that hold the office of overseer.... of course, in classic KJV language, I guess we could go with Bishop as well!
Wannabee
Obi Wan Kenobi
Actually, as I mentioned this a few posts ago, it should be slave - the Greek word "doulos" does not mean servant, though most of our English translations have translated it that way. It means "slave." We are to be slaves of Christ; douloi Christou.
In exegeting the scriptures, there are places where one interprets specific commands as generalized. For example, the command to honor one's father and mother is taken to extend to all legitimate authority.
How about Jesus' command to call no man your father, and not to be called rabbi? Does this not extend to all titles of distinction between believers? There is only one Pastor, namely God. Only One is Reverend. Similarly with other titles. I hold an M.D. but will not be called "doctor" within the church because there is only One who heals.
How about Jesus' command to call no man your father, and not to be called rabbi? Does this not extend to all titles of distinction between believers? There is only one Pastor, namely God. Only One is Reverend. Similarly with other titles. I hold an M.D. but will not be called "doctor" within the church because there is only One who heals.
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