PCA Overture on Deaconesses

[Mushroom]

Those boundaries were not set by our all-wise God to imply inferiority, but to glorify Himself through demonstrating the necessity and benefit of order and structure, which would include both the excersize of, and the submission to, enumerated stations of authority.

We all have 'offices' in the Church. They are not all recorded in scripture as offices that call for ordination. I am personally disqualified, by my own actions in the determinate will of God, to hold the ordained offices of Elder or Deacon. I am, however, called to hold the offices of sinner saved by the blood of my beloved Redeemer, husband to my beloved wife, father to my beloved children, lay member of my beloved local Church, and therefore member of my beloved PCA. I cannot say that I excel at the exercise of said offices, but I do try to take them seriously.

Women share many of the same offices, and then some others particular to their sex that are as important as any to the health of body of Christ. Wife, mother, and wise counsel to the younger women are a few that no man can perform. I believe that in every case where His people submit in faith to the authorities He has set over them it brings Him glory, because it is so very much a part of the nature of the flesh to rebel against it.

These are disturbing events.

One of my favorite go-to parts of Scripture to illustrate God-ordained roles and tasks is Numbers 4, such as this passage:

29 "Count the Merarites by their clans and families. 30 Count all the men from thirty to fifty years of age who come to serve in the work at the Tent of Meeting. 31 This is their duty as they perform service at the Tent of Meeting: to carry the frames of the tabernacle, its crossbars, posts and bases, 32 as well as the posts of the surrounding courtyard with their bases, tent pegs, ropes, all their equipment and everything related to their use. Assign to each man the specific things he is to carry. 33 This is the service of the Merarite clans as they work at the Tent of Meeting under the direction of Ithamar son of Aaron, the priest." Count all the men from thirty to fifty years of age who come to serve in the work at the Tent of Meeting.

Now, do we really believe that the Merarites were the only people in all of Israel who possessed the necessary ability to carry the frames of the the tabernacle and those otheraccouterments of the Tent of Meeting? And that they, to a man, possessed a deep, burning desire to do so? Not one would have preferred to be a baker or shepherd or something?

The LORD didn't ask their opinion of the tasks set to their hand, or say do this if it meets with their approval...He said DO IT. You, Merarites, do THIS. Gershonites, do THAT. And so on.

I've never seen how anyone can reasonably and logically insist that the LORD wants everyone to do whatever they feel like doing, considering how He didn't hesitate to instruct this family to perform this function, and that family to perform that function, regardless of what they may or may not have personally wanted to do.

And seeing as the LORD loves obedience better than sacrifice, I've also never seen the sense of assuming that the reason women aren't to lead the church, etc. is because they're incapable of doing so. If they're incapable of doing so, then obedience doesn't really come into it, does it? Integral to obedience is that one could choose to perform a particular action - or not, depending on the situation - but refrains due to loftier considerations. What makes our obedience worthwhile is because we women are doubtless perfectly capable of running any number of churches, thankyouverymuch, and doing it well, but we don't because the LORD said not to.

If the primary reason we don't perform a task because we'd gum it up if we did, that takes a good bit of the bloom off the offered obedience, doesn't it?

Amen! How very well articulated, sister. I see you're in Fort Worth, a town where I can't wander without bumping into relatives... my Dad and his 9 brothers and sisters grew up on Northside, and he's the only one to ever leave. I lived for awhile in Lake Worth and Azle. Nice place! Almost as nice as Virginia.

 

[Stephen]

Unfortunately, there are churches in the PCA that think little of violating the BCO...women have hands laid on them for their "commissioning" at the *same time* men are...thus, it becomes clear they believe men and women may hold the *same* office Liberti PCA doing exactly that (click on image #12)

Or you have what happened at my church last week; a woman deacon was a part of the laying on hands in the ordination and installation of a new RE. So much for woman deacons being acceptable because the office of deacon is not an office of authority.

Brother, I hope you are not serious. This is clearly a violation of PCA standards. I would encourage you and others to petition the session against this kind of action. This goes beyond simply recognizing woman as assisting in deaconal work but puts them in a category of spiritual oversight.

 

[Craig]

Unfortunately, there are churches in the PCA that think little of violating the BCO...women have hands laid on them for their "commissioning" at the *same time* men are...thus, it becomes clear they believe men and women may hold the *same* office Liberti PCA doing exactly that (click on image #12)

Or you have what happened at my church last week; a woman deacon was a part of the laying on hands in the ordination and installation of a new RE. So much for woman deacons being acceptable because the office of deacon is not an office of authority.

Brother, I hope you are not serious. This is clearly a violation of PCA standards. I would encourage you and others to petition the session against this kind of action. This goes beyond simply recognizing woman as assisting in deaconal work but puts them in a category of spiritual oversight.

I hope so too...but his church has 2 deaconesses listed on the diaconate.

 

[SRoper]

Unfortunately, there are churches in the PCA that think little of violating the BCO...women have hands laid on them for their "commissioning" at the *same time* men are...thus, it becomes clear they believe men and women may hold the *same* office Liberti PCA doing exactly that (click on image #12)

Or you have what happened at my church last week; a woman deacon was a part of the laying on hands in the ordination and installation of a new RE. So much for woman deacons being acceptable because the office of deacon is not an office of authority.

Brother, I hope you are not serious. This is clearly a violation of PCA standards. I would encourage you and others to petition the session against this kind of action. This goes beyond simply recognizing woman as assisting in deaconal work but puts them in a category of spiritual oversight.

Is it clear? Does the BCO specify who should do the laying on of hands? I understand that it is against the spirit of the BCO, but I don't know it well enough to know exactly what is required.

 

[TimV]

BCO 9-3 says Deacons have to be men, Chapter 17 implies the laying of hands is done by officers and the right hand of fellowship, being separate, would be others.

 

[JBaldwin]

BCO 9-3 says Deacons have to be men, Chapter 17 implies the laying of hands is done by officers and the right hand of fellowship, being separate, would be others.

I was going to go look this up, because I thought that's what the BCO teaches. I think this overture to the GA is simply pushing a matter that in my opinion has already been settled.

 

[TimV]

Your are of course right. It's just the same old pushing and pushing until something gives. Then you push for the next thing, and before you know it, you've got women Bishops and pastors like the NP neoBarthians want.

 

[Mushroom]

Your are of course right. It's just the same old pushing and pushing until something gives. Then you push for the next thing, and before you know it, you've got women Bishops and pastors like the NP neoBarthians want.

Yep. Keep pushing the envelope until you find the room you want.

A brother pointed out today that the real sorrow lies in the fact that the overture only addresses whether the ordination of female deacons complies with the BCO. It's coherence with scripture should be the main issue, of course.

 

[Craig]

The PCA's BCO is available for free HERE.

BCO 9-3
To the office of deacon, which is spiritual in nature, shall be chosen men of spiritual character, honest repute, exemplary lives, brotherly spirit, warm sympathies, and sound judgment.

BCO 17-1
Those who have been called to office in the Church are to be inducted by the ordination of a court.

BCO 17-2
Ordination is the authoritative admission of one duly called to an office in the Church of God, accompanied with prayer and the laying on of hands, to which it is proper to add the giving of the right hand of fellowship.

The BCO is completely clear on this:
The office of deacon is for MEN.

Ordaining men is itself an act of authority, done by a court...17-2 says this court makes an *authoritative* admission to office...women laying on hands during an ordination is an act of authority...a court itself is authoritative...and a woman being part of that clearly makes her position one in which authority is exerted.

This is a clear-cut case.

 

[fredtgreco]

I would even go so far as to say that deacons ought not to be involved in ordination and laying on of hands, since they are not a court. It would be as if a Session took to itself the prerogative of "ordaining" a minister of the gospel.

 

[Christusregnat]

Overture 9 recommends that General Assembly “erect a study committee on deaconesses” to determine whether the election of women to the office of deacon is contrary to the Book of Church Order (BCO).

Contrary to the Book of Church Order, and contrary to the Scripture, in my opinion

Some would argue that deaconesses are contrary to Scripture, certainly Calvin recognized them, but the BCO is often amended or changed.

Stephen,

Please provide a quotation from Calvin, and give the context and his grammatical and exegetical reasoning, if you wouldn't mind.

Here's the so-called "Genevan Book of Order":

Of the Deacons, and
Their Office and Election

The deacons must be men of good estimation and report,[a] discreet, of good conscience; charitable, wise, and finally adorned with such virtues as St. Paul requires in them. Their office is to gather the alms diligently, and faithfully to distribute them, with the consent of the ministers and elders; also to provide for the sick and impotent persons; having ever a diligent care, that the charity of godly men be not wasted upon loiterers and idle vagabonds.[c] Their election is, as has been before rehearsed in the ministers and elders.
a. Acts 6:1-6; 1 Tim. 3:8-13 b. Rom. 12:7-8 c. 2 Thess. 3:10-12

The first published version had the title:

"The Form of Prayers and Ministration of the Sacraments, etc., Used in the English Congregation at Geneva; and Approved by the Famous and Godly Learned Man, John Calvin."

Note that Calvin approved of the office of deacon being men. Perhaps he recanted?


Cheers,

 

[Christusregnat]

Or you have what happened at my church last week; a woman deacon was a part of the laying on hands in the ordination and installation of a new RE. So much for woman deacons being acceptable because the office of deacon is not an office of authority.

I suppose it would be unlikely that there are any men in that Church who would stand against such blatant flouting of the Standards, the BCO, and of course, the Word of God. Sorrow mounts upon sorrow. Are there any here that are members of that Presbytery that have the courage to bring charges? Of any Presbytery?

Brad,

The Nor-Cal presbytery has an overature to forbid the "non-ordained" office of deaconess.

Redeemer NY has been sponsoring liberal churches in our area. One of which, City Church of San Francisco, joined the RCA and now has women elders. This is a fact, not a speculation about the "woman deacon" issue. Women deacon arguments are logically (and practically) related to mama-elder issues.

Sad.

Thankfully, my pastor, and a few others are moving to change the mushy middle (VERY mushy in Nor-Cal) into something resembling a body of men.

Cheers,

 

[TimV]

Could you please PM me your pastor's email? I need to get my membership transfered.
Thanks
Tim

 

[Pilgrim]

Or you have what happened at my church last week; a woman deacon was a part of the laying on hands in the ordination and installation of a new RE. So much for woman deacons being acceptable because the office of deacon is not an office of authority.

 

[Christusregnat]

Could you please PM me your pastor's email? I need to get my membership transfered.
Thanks
Tim

Tim,

Was this intended for me?

If so, you would reside in the Southwest Presbyterian of the PCA. We're in Pleasanton, Cali (Bay Area). Wanna move?

Cheers,

 

[Craig]

Could you please PM me your pastor's email? I need to get my membership transfered.
Thanks
Tim

Tim,

Was this intended for me?

If so, you would reside in the Southwest Presbyterian of the PCA. We're in Pleasanton, Cali (Bay Area). Wanna move?

Cheers,

Wow! What a Presbytery! My wife and I love Northern California...I'll PM estimates on the cost to move us and my monthly income needs. I think we could scrape by with a modest 2,500 sq ft apartment in San Fran

 

[Christusregnat]

Could you please PM me your pastor's email? I need to get my membership transfered.
Thanks
Tim

Tim,

Was this intended for me?

If so, you would reside in the Southwest Presbyterian of the PCA. We're in Pleasanton, Cali (Bay Area). Wanna move?

Cheers,

Wow! What a Presbytery! My wife and I love Northern California...I'll PM estimates on the cost to move us and my monthly income needs. I think we could scrape by with a modest 2,500 sq ft apartment in San Fran

Ha! Who wants to live in S.F.? It's way overrated. We're moving out to the Livermore wine country soon (next door to Pleasanton, where we currently are). Good times, good wines, good weather.

Cheers,

 

[Archlute]

Or you have what happened at my church last week; a woman deacon was a part of the laying on hands in the ordination and installation of a new RE. So much for woman deacons being acceptable because the office of deacon is not an office of authority.

 

[TimV]

Tim,

Was this intended for me?

If so, you would reside in the Southwest Presbyterian of the PCA. We're in Pleasanton, Cali (Bay Area). Wanna move?

Cheers,

Thanks! I thought the Bay area was NorCal Presbytery! I'm about 5 hours south.

 

[Gage Browning]

Is the laying on of hands "ordination" w/out authority?

Are they formally ordained (laying of hands) or simply titled 'deaconess' for their role of service?[/QUOTE]
The short answer is "YES"...some are!

Liberti Church in Pennsylvania definitely laid hands on their women deacons.
You can see the pictures via this link-
Liberti Church
Pictures 19 and 21 clearly depict the laying on of hands.

So can you lay hands on and not ordain? Can you ordain w/out that office having any authority? If some are arguing that the office doesn't have "authority" then why not just follow the BCO 9.7? It says that individual Sessions are allowed to "select and appoint godly men and women of the congregation to assist the deacons in caring for the sick, the widows, the orphans, the prisoners, and others who may be in distress or need." (BCO 9-7). Why not just follow BCO 9.7? In my mind it's because of the issue of authority.

It seems to me that if "we" are "laying hands" and ordaining women then we must remove BCO 9.3 - which says, "To the office of deacon, which is spiritual in nature, shall be chosen men of spiritual character, honest repute, exemplary lives, brotherly spirit, warm sympathies, and sound judgment."

It seems to me that the office is clearly one of authority. BCO 17-2 clearly states it is:
"Ordination is the authoritative admission of one duly called to an office in the Church of God, accompanied with prayer and the laying on of hands, to which it is proper to add the giving of the right hand of fellowship."

 

[Christusregnat]

Tim,

Was this intended for me?

If so, you would reside in the Southwest Presbyterian of the PCA. We're in Pleasanton, Cali (Bay Area). Wanna move?

Cheers,

Thanks! I thought the Bay area was NorCal Presbytery! I'm about 5 hours south.

Tim,

My bad. Yes, bay area is NorCal Presbyterian. I misunderstood, and was saying that San Luis is in Southwest... silly me.

Move to the Bay Area! We have homeschool families in our church, and we also support a missionary from S.A. (Charl van Wyk). I visited S.A. in 2004, and had a wonderful time.

I see you have lots of kids, and that you do contracting; what sort? I'm a CPA contractor in San Fran, and commute in from Pleasanton.

Godspeed,

Adam

 

[SRoper]

I would even go so far as to say that deacons ought not to be involved in ordination and laying on of hands, since they are not a court. It would be as if a Session took to itself the prerogative of "ordaining" a minister of the gospel.

Well that's the real issue, and it's seperate from the issue of the propriety of woman deacons.

So can you lay hands on and not ordain? Can you ordain w/out that office having any authority? If some are arguing that the office doesn't have "authority" then why not just follow the BCO 9.7? It says that individual Sessions are allowed to "select and appoint godly men and women of the congregation to assist the deacons in caring for the sick, the widows, the orphans, the prisoners, and others who may be in distress or need." (BCO 9-7). Why not just follow BCO 9.7? In my mind it's because of the issue of authority.

It seems to me that if "we" are "laying hands" and ordaining women then we must remove BCO 9.3 - which says, "To the office of deacon, which is spiritual in nature, shall be chosen men of spiritual character, honest repute, exemplary lives, brotherly spirit, warm sympathies, and sound judgment."

It seems to me that the office is clearly one of authority. BCO 17-2 clearly states it is:
"Ordination is the authoritative admission of one duly called to an office in the Church of God, accompanied with prayer and the laying on of hands, to which it is proper to add the giving of the right hand of fellowship."

I guess it depends on when the laying on hands is appropriate. Is it only done for ordination? I have seen it done in the commissioning of missionaries, for example. In such cases it is often done with lay persons among those who are doing the laying on of hands. Is this also inappropriate?

 

[doctorcello]

Central Info Location about PCA and Female Deacons

I am working on a website to archive all links and info about the female deacon/deaconess discussion in the PCA. Please send me your links, etc.

http://www.waysidechurch.org/femdeacs/femdeacs.htm

Thank you!

 

[Stephen]

Or you have what happened at my church last week; a woman deacon was a part of the laying on hands in the ordination and installation of a new RE. So much for woman deacons being acceptable because the office of deacon is not an office of authority.

I suppose it would be unlikely that there are any men in that Church who would stand against such blatant flouting of the Standards, the BCO, and of course, the Word of God. Sorrow mounts upon sorrow. Are there any here that are members of that Presbytery that have the courage to bring charges? Of any Presbytery?

Brad,

The Nor-Cal presbytery has an overature to forbid the "non-ordained" office of deaconess.

Redeemer NY has been sponsoring liberal churches in our area. One of which, City Church of San Francisco, joined the RCA and now has women elders. This is a fact, not a speculation about the "woman deacon" issue. Women deacon arguments are logically (and practically) related to mama-elder issues.

Sad.

Thankfully, my pastor, and a few others are moving to change the mushy middle (VERY mushy in Nor-Cal) into something resembling a body of men.

Cheers,

I was curious about your statement, "the N. California Presbytery has an overture to forbid the "non-ordained" office of deaconess." There is no overture like this that was submitted to the stated clerk of the GA, so I wanted to clarify this statement.