ColdSilverMoon
Puritan Board Senior
Scott, must a church have deacons to particularize?
Not Ordaining Deacons
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toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
I don't mean to speak for Scott, but OF COURSE a church must not have deacons to particularize.
But that's not the point.
Mushroom
Puritan Board Doctor
Sneakin' Sally through the alley, or, looking for loopholes to give Lucy a label. You men ought to be ashamed of yourselves. The fact that you are not speaks volumes. May the Lord remember your assaults on His bride against you. Or repent. You kick against the goads to your own wounding.
Taking a breather.
This thread will remain closed but reminds me of the reason why the Church continues to have to make tighter and tighter definitions that were unnecessary in previous generations.
When I say I'm grieved by this thread, it is not because I see men arguing for female deacons as such. There are many denominations that do this - some I consider to be very solid. The ministers who hold to this conviction do so out of Biblical conviction.
I disagree with this conviction but here's the thing: they make it clear where they are on a subject.
I think what is happening in some of these discussions is poison to any Church when it begins to play with words. I was thinking just today about Moses coming down from the mountain after Aaron made the golden calf. Would any of us really think that the excuse that God didn't specifically rule out golden calves by mentioning them by name as exonerating Aaron from his highhanded sin?
What about Saul when he spared the Agagites? Saul was never told, specifically, NOT to spare the best for the Lord.
Those who would argue for their positions by plays on words: be mindful what you might achieve in addition to what you desire to gain in the near term strategy. You will gain unordained female deacons and find they serve a congregation of men and women who have no confidence in words. Words are what give men life. Destroy a man's confidence in the meaning of language and you innoculate men from the Truth. Ours is not a visual religion but something that comes to us from God-breathed words.
I simply will not tolerate it. I cannot abide it here because it breaks my heart to see Christian men engaging in tactics that will destroy the very ground we stand upon. Argue for the ordination of women on Biblical grounds but don't tear up the meaning of words and play the role of the skeptic or the sophist. The subject isn't nuclear itself but the tactics are - if this is indeed "secondary" then those who engage in such tactics are destroying the foundation of any truth in its defense.
When I say I'm grieved by this thread, it is not because I see men arguing for female deacons as such. There are many denominations that do this - some I consider to be very solid. The ministers who hold to this conviction do so out of Biblical conviction.
I disagree with this conviction but here's the thing: they make it clear where they are on a subject.
I think what is happening in some of these discussions is poison to any Church when it begins to play with words. I was thinking just today about Moses coming down from the mountain after Aaron made the golden calf. Would any of us really think that the excuse that God didn't specifically rule out golden calves by mentioning them by name as exonerating Aaron from his highhanded sin?
What about Saul when he spared the Agagites? Saul was never told, specifically, NOT to spare the best for the Lord.
Those who would argue for their positions by plays on words: be mindful what you might achieve in addition to what you desire to gain in the near term strategy. You will gain unordained female deacons and find they serve a congregation of men and women who have no confidence in words. Words are what give men life. Destroy a man's confidence in the meaning of language and you innoculate men from the Truth. Ours is not a visual religion but something that comes to us from God-breathed words.
I simply will not tolerate it. I cannot abide it here because it breaks my heart to see Christian men engaging in tactics that will destroy the very ground we stand upon. Argue for the ordination of women on Biblical grounds but don't tear up the meaning of words and play the role of the skeptic or the sophist. The subject isn't nuclear itself but the tactics are - if this is indeed "secondary" then those who engage in such tactics are destroying the foundation of any truth in its defense.
Wayne
Tempus faciendi, Domine.
While not strictly authoritative for the PCA, the reasoning in the following stands I think, as it is referenced back to various paragraphs of the PCUS Book of Church Order, and these paragraphs still stand unchanged in the current PCA BCO.
From A Digest of the Acts and Proceedings of the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in the United States, 1861-1965, page 65:
Form of Government 12-4
A church does not have choice whether to have Deacons or Board.
1936, p. 40. [Overture asking the Assembly to grant individual churches the option of employing one Board of Officers as the governing body of the church.]--answered in the negative. See the paper on the "Doctrine of the Diaconate," by Girardeau, Dabney and Peck (1884). While never adopted or endorsed by the Assembly, this paper presents one aspect of the mind of the Church.
1965, pp. 29, 95. That Overture 14 concerning unicameral operation in the local church, be answered with the following statement as recommended by the Permanent Judicial Commission:
An unicameral system already exists in that the Session has supervision and authority over the Deacons (Section 12-5 and 15-6, BCO) and thereby has ultimate authority for the proper discharge of the functions of the Deacons. Nevertheless the Deacons must organize as a board with officers and regular meetings (Section 12-4) for the better discharge of the specific duties with which the board is charged (Section 12-3). It is only in a church in which Deacons cannot be secured that the duties of the office devolve upon its Ruling Elders (Section 15-6).
That Overture 15 relative to the office of Deacon, be answered with the following statement as recommended by the Permanent Judicial Commission:
The Commission recommends that the first proposition of the overture be answered in the affirmative for the reasons set out in the overture and in the provisions of Section 12-3, Book of Church Order, which specifies that the office of Deacon is spiritual in nature.
The Commission recommends that the second proposition of the overture be answered in the negative. The Deacons must organize as aq board and elect officers including a Treasurer (Section 12-4) for the better discharge of the functions primarily committed to them by Section 12-3. This must not be construed as merely permissive. The Session has the authority in its discretion to employ or to permit the employment of a business administrator for the assistance of the Deacons, but thereby the Deacons are not relieved of any responsibility imposed by Section 12-3. The office of Deacon is spiritual in nature (Section 12-2), a quality which is to be exercised, rather than overlooked or suppressed, in the discharge of their duties. The office of Deacon as set forth in Scripture is one of sympathy and service after the example of Christ (Section 12-1), given for ordering the life of the church along with the office of the Minister of the Word and Sacraments and the office of the Ruling Elder, and to be continued perpetually in the church (Section 9-2).
From A Digest of the Acts and Proceedings of the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in the United States, 1861-1965, page 65:
Form of Government 12-4
A church does not have choice whether to have Deacons or Board.
1936, p. 40. [Overture asking the Assembly to grant individual churches the option of employing one Board of Officers as the governing body of the church.]--answered in the negative. See the paper on the "Doctrine of the Diaconate," by Girardeau, Dabney and Peck (1884). While never adopted or endorsed by the Assembly, this paper presents one aspect of the mind of the Church.
1965, pp. 29, 95. That Overture 14 concerning unicameral operation in the local church, be answered with the following statement as recommended by the Permanent Judicial Commission:
An unicameral system already exists in that the Session has supervision and authority over the Deacons (Section 12-5 and 15-6, BCO) and thereby has ultimate authority for the proper discharge of the functions of the Deacons. Nevertheless the Deacons must organize as a board with officers and regular meetings (Section 12-4) for the better discharge of the specific duties with which the board is charged (Section 12-3). It is only in a church in which Deacons cannot be secured that the duties of the office devolve upon its Ruling Elders (Section 15-6).
That Overture 15 relative to the office of Deacon, be answered with the following statement as recommended by the Permanent Judicial Commission:
The Commission recommends that the first proposition of the overture be answered in the affirmative for the reasons set out in the overture and in the provisions of Section 12-3, Book of Church Order, which specifies that the office of Deacon is spiritual in nature.
The Commission recommends that the second proposition of the overture be answered in the negative. The Deacons must organize as aq board and elect officers including a Treasurer (Section 12-4) for the better discharge of the functions primarily committed to them by Section 12-3. This must not be construed as merely permissive. The Session has the authority in its discretion to employ or to permit the employment of a business administrator for the assistance of the Deacons, but thereby the Deacons are not relieved of any responsibility imposed by Section 12-3. The office of Deacon is spiritual in nature (Section 12-2), a quality which is to be exercised, rather than overlooked or suppressed, in the discharge of their duties. The office of Deacon as set forth in Scripture is one of sympathy and service after the example of Christ (Section 12-1), given for ordering the life of the church along with the office of the Minister of the Word and Sacraments and the office of the Ruling Elder, and to be continued perpetually in the church (Section 9-2).
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