Is a wooden cross hanging prominently in a sanctuary a violation of the 2nd

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raydixon9

Puritan Board Freshman
Commandment?

It seems like it would be in that when you see the cross you envision Christ's atonement for your sin which would lead you to worshipful thoughts of Christ.

I've read through some of the older posts on here but couldn't draw a definitive conclusion. Please help.

Thanks
 
Some discussion here:

http://www.puritanboard.com/f34/roman-catholic-crucifix-simple-protestant-cross-69342/

I would say that it depends on how it is used. The Larger Catechism teaches (109):

"...the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever; all worshipping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them, all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretence whatsoever;"
 
Let me narrow it down a bit: I'm not talking about a cross on a letterhead, in someone's house, on an outside church sign, on a website, etc. I'm specifically talking about a cross inside the place of worship during the worship service. So, maybe whilst singing hymns the congregant looks at the cross which leads to worshipping the true God. Is that a violation of the 2nd commandment by being led to worship by an image? I realize I'm splitting hairs and I'm looking at an issue that is one of the least of the concerns of the church today, but that doesn't mean we need to neglect the issue altogether.
 
It is not in the nature of the thing, but I think it has been and can be used idolatrously, which is why I think it unwise to place a cross prominently in a sanctuary.
 
You could use it wrongly, of course, as you could anything. But there's nothing inherently wrong with putting up a visual reminder that we must always be looking to Christ and his atonement. When I see a cross in a sanctuary, that's what I think.


raydixon9 said:
It seems like it would be in that when you see the cross you envision Christ's atonement for your sin which would lead you to worshipful thoughts of Christ.
Click to expand...

Ray, if I read you right it seems you're not so much concerned about "worshipful thoughts of Christ" (which, of course, are a good thing) but about envisioning an image of Christ on the cross and using that mental image to drive worship. I don't think it necessarily follows that seeing a cross leads to such envisioning. In fact, if one is trying to avoid pictures of Jesus, I submit that using a cross as a symbol makes a good alternative.
 
Jack K said:
But there's nothing inherently wrong with putting up a visual reminder that we must always be looking to Christ and his atonement.
Click to expand...

I think there will be disagreement on this statement. From what Biblical principle do you make this claim? We have already been given two visual (and other sense) reminders in the Lord's Supper: bread and wine. I would say that "the cross" as mentioned in scripture is an event that should be reminded us using the words of scripture alone, rather than with a wooden icon.

I would suggest that using a cross, wooden or otherwise, in this way is so ubiquitous these days that we fail to see the danger in it.
 
I was thinking the same thing. I would actually have a cross before I would have a Blue Banner. But I also vote neither.
 
To add more detail to my response,

1) Is it a superstitious device? Generally not in Protestant churches. (If it is, you probably need to look for a different church not because of what is hanging on the wall, but because of what is being taught from the pulpit).

2) Does it cause folks to stumble because it causes them to form in their own mind an image of Christ on the cross? If so, while the sin is in the viewer, not the person who put up the device, it probably ought to be removed to prevent such stumbling.

I do think you'll find some division on the issue between those who are BR and those who are TR on this board.
 
earl40 said:
irresistible_grace said:
Baptism & the LORD's Supper are the only two visual aids we are commanded to have in worship.
Click to expand...

Though both of these point to the Lord Jesus who was human (and divine) and everyone ought to "envision" such.
Click to expand...

To "envision" Christ in one's mind is sin and WLC 109 speaks as such. (Regardless if men trained in some confessionally Reformed seminaries seem to have been taught differently)
 
Backwoods Presbyterian said:
earl40 said:
irresistible_grace said:
Baptism & the LORD's Supper are the only two visual aids we are commanded to have in worship.
Click to expand...

Though both of these point to the Lord Jesus who was human (and divine) and everyone ought to "envision" such.
Click to expand...

To "envision" Christ in one's mind is sin and WLC 109 speaks as such. (Regardless if men trained in some confessionally Reformed seminaries seem to have been taught differently)
Click to expand...
Actually, to form an image in one's mind inwardly ("making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind") is what is forbidden in the Second Commandment. Having a visual reminder of the work of Christ is no more sinful than having a visual reminder of the work of the Lord in the Lord's Supper (the table being present) or the work of the Lord in baptism (the font being present).

Of course, it would be different if the cross actually contained a representation of Christ (e.g a crucifix) or if it was used as an aid in worship (e.g. "look at the cross and pray"). Otherwise, it is simply an item in the meeting room that is subject to abuse (even the pulpit itself could be that) - abusus non tollit usus. If anything, a banner, especially a banner that celebrates the work of men, is a greater violation. But this is clearly a matter of judgment. It is impossible to say that it is inherently and always sinful, or that it is inherently and never sinful (as Chris points out above).
 
And I wasn't saying otherwise. To think of two pieces of wood stacked across one another is obviously not sin. To think of two pieces of wood stacked across one another and then envisioning Christ and his work (as Earl was saying) however is. Ralph Erskine (and more directly James Fisher's appendix starting at page 449) in his work "Faith No Fancy" has a good discussion on this.

It is an equivocation to mix the font, pulpit, and the representation of the cross of calvary. They are different things.

I also agree that the "blue banner" should not have a prominent place in a house of worship.
 
Backwoods Presbyterian said:
It is an equivocation to mix the font, pulpit, and the representation of the cross of calvary. They are different things.
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Ben,
I don't understand this at all. The only way in which they differ is when the font and table are actually used. At every other time (which is the vast majority of the time) the matter is identical. In fact, it is commonplace in Reformed churches to draw attention to the font and table when they are not being used (with banners, inscriptions, etc.)
 
Backwoods Presbyterian said:
earl40 said:
irresistible_grace said:
Baptism & the LORD's Supper are the only two visual aids we are commanded to have in worship.
Click to expand...

Though both of these point to the Lord Jesus who was human (and divine) and everyone ought to "envision" such.
Click to expand...

To "envision" Christ in one's mind is sin and WLC 109 speaks as such. (Regardless if men trained in some confessionally Reformed seminaries seem to have been taught differently)
Click to expand...

How can you not "envision" in your mind The Man Jesus hanging on a cross? Do you think, or envision, a bunny rabbit hang there? I am not trying to be vulgar but am only attempting to say crudely how it is impossible not to envision The Man Jesus hanging there.
 
To Fred:

Exactly.

A wooden (or of another material) cross is functionally different from a table or a font. In other words whereas a pulpit fulfills a function (to hold the pulpit bible or a preacher's notes) likewise does a table and a font. A cross featured prominently has no other function other than to draw one's mind away from the signs given (Baptism, the Word, and the Lord's Supper) to a sign not commanded by Christ or His apostles.

One needs a font to hold water to give the sign and seal of Baptism to an infant or an adult, you need to have a table upon which to lay the elements of the Lord's Supper, and a pulpit is a great help (though certainly not necessary) to the minister expounding the Word.

A cross is not only unnecessary, but unwarranted.
 
earl40 said:
Backwoods Presbyterian said:
earl40 said:
irresistible_grace said:
Baptism & the LORD's Supper are the only two visual aids we are commanded to have in worship.
Click to expand...

Though both of these point to the Lord Jesus who was human (and divine) and everyone ought to "envision" such.
Click to expand...

To "envision" Christ in one's mind is sin and WLC 109 speaks as such. (Regardless if men trained in some confessionally Reformed seminaries seem to have been taught differently)
Click to expand...

How can you not "envision" in your mind The Man Jesus hanging on a cross? Do you think, or envision, a bunny rabbit hang there? I am not trying to be vulgar but am only attempting to say crudely how it is impossible not to envision The Man Jesus hanging there.
Click to expand...

The same way you can look at a woman and not commit adultery in your mind and look at a person and not envision murdering them.
 
Ben,

Then why have a font when it is not being used? And why have a font at all, since it is not necessary, nor described in Scripture?
 
I am evidently being extremely unclear.

This is the question I am asking.

What does having a Cross in a prominent place in the worship space accomplish and what is its purpose?

vs.

What does having a baptismal font in the front of the worship space accomplish and what is its purpose?

What I am saying is that a Cross not only has no biblical warrant, but that it is unwise to have one present, and to "envision" Christ is sin.

This simple difference is that you cannot administer the sacrament of Baptism without a font being present and a Cross serves no purpose other than to draw men's minds away from the visible elements given by Christ to the Church.

To the point of it being present we do not keep the trays, cups, and plates out all the time and only bring them out on Lord's Days in which we serve the Lord's Supper. On other days the table is used to hold the offering plates.
 
Backwoods Presbyterian said:
The same way you can look at a woman and not commit adultery in your mind and look at a person and not envision murdering them.
Click to expand...

So when you "envision" a woman what do you see in your mind? I take it would be a female and not a male which in of itself is not sin. The same goes for Our Lord. We do not envision a lady on the cross but a man and I am saying it is impossible not to think any other way. Do you suppose the people who were present at the Crucifixion were sinning when they remembered Jesus on the cross? If they did you are saying they are sinning.
 
Backwoods Presbyterian said:
I am evidently being extremely unclear.

This is the question I am asking.

What does having a Cross in a prominent place in the worship space accomplish and what is its purpose?

vs.

What does having a baptismal font in the front of the worship space accomplish and what is its purpose?

What I am saying is that a Cross not only has no biblical warrant, but that it is unwise to have one present, and to "envision" Christ is sin.

This simple difference is that you cannot administer the sacrament of Baptism without a font being present and a Cross serves no purpose other than to draw men's minds away from the visible elements given by Christ to the Church.

To the point of it being present we do not keep the trays, cups, and plates out all the time and only bring them out on Lord's Days in which we serve the Lord's Supper. On other days the table is used to hold the offering plates.
Click to expand...
Ben,

You are being clear, but I believe you are making a logical fallacy. It is a leap to go from "that is unwise" to "that is a sin." The latter is always wrong, in every instance, at every time. I am asserting that one cannot state that the mere presence of a cross in a church is sin. There is no Biblical warrant for such. That does not mean it is always wise. But we should not call that sin, which God does not.
 
I went back and re-read all of my posts in this thread. I think we are talking past one another. I never said using a cross was sin, the only time I used the word "sin" was in reference to Earl's promotion in his #12 (as is clear in his #23) of mental images of Christ. I apologize if I didn't make that clear in my #16.
 
Backwoods Presbyterian said:
I went back and re-read all of my posts in this thread. I think we are talking past one another. I never said using a cross was sin, the only time I used the word "sin" was in reference to Earl's promotion in his #12 (as is clear in his #23) of mental images of Christ. I apologize if I didn't make that clear in my #16.
Click to expand...
The fault then is likely mine. I had assumed you were advocating the position that a cross was a violation of the 2nd commandment (the OP's question).

Sorry!
 
Thanks.

And I was not trying to argue for a cross (we don't have one in our building), I was trying to point out what is far too often a PB fallacy that says, "I don't like this/this is not wise" therefore, it "must be a sin."

I realize you are not trying to make that point; we were really talking past each other. Thanks!
 
We do have a cross in our worship space. We meet in a rented room in a hockey rink and we hang coverings over bulletin boards, put up banners, and put a hand carved cross on a table. These things are all done to make it clear that what happens on Sunday morning in this space is different from the Zumba classes and lions club meetings that take place there at other times.

And I can honestly say that it the two years I have set up and removed that cross I never once imagined anyone hanging on it. It is just a way that we communicate to those that walk by and look in what is goin on in this romm is different from what normally happens there.
 
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