Independancy defined

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FYI: As well, R.C. Sproul has now attached his congregation to the RPCGA!

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Originally posted by Formerly At Enmity
just wanted everyone to know that independent pres here in memphis was at one time exactly that; independent....though it is a bit of an oxymoron, it had no affiliation for a time (right or wrong). unless what i have understood to be the truth is false, they simply joined the pca after remaining independent for a time (agian, right or wrong). until recently, john sartelle was the pastor and he introduced me to gospel preaching..i will forever be thankful to the incredible ministry that ipc has had and their incredible bookstore (workin' on my soli deo gloria collection!) wanted to make an attempt at clearing the air...
jason
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So really, it really was a Congregational Church but Presbyterian in name, and then changed.
 
Originally posted by webmaster
I would press you to read jus divinium. It will answer lots of questions and help you come to some of the conclusions on your own. Honestly, when this topic arises, lots of people on the board get too edgy.
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Understood. I don't wish to open up a brawl over this. Thanks again for your teaching/guiding/correcting in relation to my questions. I'm off to read some Jus Divinum........:book2:
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
FYI: As well, R.C. Sproul has now attached his congregation to the RPCGA!

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Is this senior you are referring to? Junior has been with RPCGA for I think a couple years now.
 
again, i have visited ipc on many occasions and have had a few people give me explanations as to what happened....as i said, if what i have been told is the truth, then we have what we have....check the website on andrews post and see......
thx...
 
1 Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Cor 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

Ro 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1 Cor 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

...

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
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Lets make one point clear: Presbyterians are seperated OVER principles, independents are seperated AS A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE.
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Originally posted by RAS
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
FYI: As well, R.C. Sproul has now attached his congregation to the RPCGA!

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Is this senior you are referring to? Junior has been with RPCGA for I think a couple years now.
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Senior!
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Great news! I wonder how many and who will follow.

BTW, where did you get this information? My web search has turned up nothing.

[Edited on 7-20-2005 by RAS]
 
ho hum.....here we go again....

I guess if you are in a non WCF church then you are not really in a church at all because the WCF Presbyterians are the only visible church on the face of the earth....they are....really.....everyone else is out.

1 Cor 12 - many members, one body....and that does not refer to a DENOMINATION.



:worms:
 
Originally posted by pastorway
ho hum.....here we go again....

I guess if you are in a non WCF church then you are not really in a church at all because the WCF Presbyterians are the only visible church on the face of the earth....they are....really.....everyone else is out.

1 Cor 12 - many members, one body....and that does not refer to a DENOMINATION.

:worms:
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We are the redheaded stepchild that is left handed Phil.:lol:
 
Gabe,
Go read Messiah the Prince. It will tell you that it comes by the laying on of Hands by men already ordained. That is the order that God gave.

[Edited on 7-20-2005 by puritancovenanter]
 
I agree, brother. That's why I was asking why independents/schismatics seem to ignore this practice ... or begin a "new line" of ordained ministers, having no authority in and of themselves to claim ordination.
 
Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
I agree, brother. That's why I was asking why independents/schismatics seem to ignore this practice ... or begin a "new line" of ordained ministers, having no authority in and of themselves to claim ordination.
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I don't know of any unless you are talking about getting a sheep skin through the mail. The Baptist Churches I have attended are very sticky about ordination. You have to give your own systematic theo doc to profs and Pastors. Be able to defend it. Have lots of experience at ministry and be recommeneded. Plus you have to have the education. And knowledge of the original languages.
 
is the authority passed down from person to person or from church to church? where is the authority? INDIVIDUALS, or the CONGREGATION OF THE LORD?

If it really is a matter of being passed down instead of authority inherent in the Body of Christ, then prove to me that your church goes back to the Apostles. Prove it, or prove yourself all to be the very illegitimate schismatics you accuse others of being.

Or, as the Word of God so clearly states:

15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19And if they were all one member, where would the body be? 20But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." 22No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. 27Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
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Phillip
 
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
I don't know of any unless you are talking about getting a sheep skin through the mail. The Baptist Churches I have attended are very sticky about ordination. You have to give your own systematic theo doc to profs and Pastors. Be able to defend it. Have lots of experience at ministry and be recommeneded. Plus you have to have the education. And knowledge of the original languages.
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This type of thing is foreign to my Baptist background. Completely foreign. *shrug* :candle:
 
Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
I don't know of any unless you are talking about getting a sheep skin through the mail. The Baptist Churches I have attended are very sticky about ordination. You have to give your own systematic theo doc to profs and Pastors. Be able to defend it. Have lots of experience at ministry and be recommeneded. Plus you have to have the education. And knowledge of the original languages.
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This type of thing is foreign to my Baptist background. Completely foreign. *shrug* :candle:
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I am sorry to hear that. It ought to be very hard. Pastoring is one of the hardest jobs on the earth. Especially since one has to live and know what they are talking.
 
Going to Seminary was looked DOWN upon at my home church, for those seeking to do ministry. Being in Seminary made a person "out of touch with reality" and "too uncreative" for modern ministry.
 
Once more, Gabe, it is clear that your southern baptist experiences were a far cry from those of most of us Calvinistic Baptists here on the PB.

Very sad indeed.

JH
 
Here is a most necessary comparison to keep in mind:

The SBC is to the 1689 as the PCUSA is to the WCF.
Of course there are exceptions, but you get the picture.
 
I guess if you are in a non WCF church then you are not really in a church at all because the WCF Presbyterians are the only visible church on the face of the earth....they are....really.....everyone else is out.
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I don't think this is what people are saying. I can't speak for Matt and Scott B, but I am sympathetic with their concerns over polity and agree with what they have written so far. My understanding is that there is a difference between a "true church" and a "lawfully called minister." These are separate issues that require separate analysis.

The standard reformed test to determine whether a church is a "true church" is whether the body meaintains the essentials of the Word and Sacraments. Occasionally discipline is added as a third prong of the test. Under this test, many independent churches would certainly qualify as "true churches." Certainly the reformed baptist churches and other conservative independent churches we know of would easily pass this test and be considered true churches.

A separate issue is whether the ministers are lawfully called and ordained. As you mention, there two common sources are offered for ministerial authority: (1) previously ordained elders or (2) the congregation. We (ecclesial presbyterians) believe (1) and independents often (but not always) believe (2).

Further, we do not believe that only those holding the WCF in line with presbyterian denominations hold ministerial succession. in my opinion at least there are many denominations that do, most presbyterian denominations, most Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans, etc. I would perhaps agree that congregationalists could claim ministerial succession if they had other previously ordained ministers ordain them (and that sort of line traces back - which is my understanding of how American congregationalists operated).

Scott
 
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