Ghosts and haunted houses

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"The devil is most active in the world by pretending he doesn't exist," might hold some validity in the Atheistic West, but not in many other parts of the globe.
 
Pergamum said:
"The devil is most active in the world by pretending he doesn't exist," might hold some validity in the Atheistic West, but not in many other parts of the globe.
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Indeed, we can even say such a view is cultural imperialism by taking the unique experience of the secular West and imposing it on the rest of humanity and human history.
 
I just want to say, again, that everyone who has commented here believes firmly that the devil is active. Some of us want to get our doctrine about that activity, and what the duty of the Church is in relation to it, from Scripture and not from philosophy, conjecture, reports, or even experience.
 
Jeri Tanner said:
I just want to say, again, that everyone who has commented here believes firmly that the devil is active. Some of us want to get our doctrine about that activity, and what the duty of the Church is in relation to it, from Scripture and not from philosophy, conjecture, reports, or even experience.
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Indeed, and one should not take the miraculous deeds of Jesus and The Apostles and make that normative practice today.
 
Jeri Tanner said:
All the information given us in the epistles about Satan is in relation to morality- to our resisting sin and temptation. In 2 Timothy, the response to those ensnared by Satan is meekness in instructing them, if God "peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." The bondage of Satan is a moral bondage, and freedom comes not through exorcism but through the hearing of the truth and God granting repentance.
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Satan blinds the eyes of those not saved, and he also is the one behind all false religions and theologies, and while you are indeed true that the Gospel light and power of Christ can deliver from his darkness, does he not still retain supernatural abilities and powers also though even now?
 
Pergamum said:
Act 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying...

This episode occurred after the Crucifixion. While Christ dealt with an abnormally large number of demons (who might have gathered at this strategic juncture in Israel to oppose the Messiah), the presence and work of evil spirits, nonetheless, still continued after Christ ascended into heaven.

The early church fathers speak of demons. The Medieval Church speaks of them.

There is a famous quote from Athanasious (let me find it) that speaks of magic ceasing and demons fleeing as Christianity expands. The demons only has as much power as we give them.

On the Incarnation has some quotes, but here is Athanasius from the life of Anthony:

"And let each one of you consider this, and he will be able to despise the demons...But the demons as they have no power are like actors on the stage changing their shape and frightening children with tumultuous apparition and various forms: from which they ought rather to be despised as showing their weakness. At least the true Angel of the Lord sent against the Assyrian had no need for tumults nor displays from without, nor noises nor rattlings, but in quiet he used his power and immediately destroyed a hundred and eighty-five thousand. But demons like these, who have no power, try to terrify at least by their displays.

30 'So then we ought to fear God only, and despise the demons, and be in no fear of them.

31 And they do come. The demons, however, do this not from any care for the hearers, but to gain their trust, and that then at length, having got them in their power, they may destroy them...

...33 'Thus in days gone by arose the oracles of the Greeks, and thus they were led astray by the demons. But thus also thenceforth their deception was brought to an end by the coming of the Lord , who brought to nought the demons and their devices...So if the demons sometimes do the same by guesswork, let no one wonder at it or heed them."

The desert fathers claimed to have seen demons and often been tempted by them. Even Martin Luther reports being confronted by the devil.

I am not prepared to call all of them liars.


In fact, there is no record of any total cessation of dark spiritual activity throughout the history of the Church. At the time of the Protestant Reformation they focused more on the interal and moral aspects of sin and the flesh, and often downplayed the direct role of the devil or demons. Yet, there are records of Puritan possessions and exorcisms, Puritans dealing with witchcract or supposed witchcraft.

The real turning point was the Enlightenment when Christians found out that many of their cases of witchcraft were false accusations and it gave religion a black eye. But some hysteria in Salem does not mean the devil is finished actually working against us.
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I really wonder if Satan "plays around" with the unsaved and saved, and updates to fit our present culture and thinking processes. as once they were seen as fairies and incubus and the like, and now in the Space Age have appeared to us as space brothers and aliens from space coming to deliver and save us now.
 
earl40 said:
It is still a big deal if even one exorcism is attempted today in any church. The number makes no difference if people believe in such via bad teaching, or supposed eye witness testimony.
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Can unsaved persons become demon possessed today, and if so, would they not need to be delivered by the power of the Holy Spirit?
 
Dachaser said:
Are those said to be the result of the sons of God and mortal women in Genesis?
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The crux of the matter is what does "beney ha-elohim" mean? I don't call them angels because angel is a functional term, not an ontological one.

People object, "Angels don't have penises." That has nothing to do with the issue. First of all, I don't believe all spirit beings are lumped under the label "angel." The OT doesn't do that. A rephaim is a spirit-being, but it is certainly not an angel! A shedim is a spirit-being, but not an angel.

But whatever. Do angels have mouths? Most people say no, but the Bible describes angels as "eating."
 
BayouHuguenot said:
The crux of the matter is what does "beney ha-elohim" mean? I don't call them angels because angel is a functional term, not an ontological one.

People object, "Angels don't have penises." That has nothing to do with the issue. First of all, I don't believe all spirit beings are lumped under the label "angel." The OT doesn't do that. A rephaim is a spirit-being, but it is certainly not an angel! A shedim is a spirit-being, but not an angel.

But whatever. Do angels have mouths? Most people say no, but the Bible describes angels as "eating."
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I look at it as demons possessing the wicked line of Cain, and the byproducts of that sexual union between daughters of men and them were the Giants and others of renown of OT times.
 
Dachaser said:
I look at it as demons possessing the wicked line of Cain, and the byproducts of that sexual union between daughters of men and them were the Giants and others of renown of OT times.
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Could be. I don't see the text saying anything about the line of Cain.
 
Jeri Tanner said:
gain, Rev. Winzer on this board always recommended Satan Cast Out by Frederick Leahy. That book will greatly help anyone trying to sort out how to think about the activity of demons, spirits, etc
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So our church library had a copy and I browsed it. On p. 155 he said that while most magic is nonsense (and I agree), it does open a door to demonic activity. That seems to be what I am saying.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
So our church library had a copy and I browsed it. On p. 155 he said that while most magic is nonsense (and I agree), it does open a door to demonic activity. That seems to be what I am saying.
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The vast majority of Magic/Tarot cards/séances etc. are indeed a sham, fakery of the highest order, but there would still be those rare times when real supernatural activities are happening, and Christians should avoid those at all costs.
 
Dachaser said:
The vast majority of Magic/Tarot cards/séances etc. are indeed a sham, fakery of the highest order, but there would still be those rare times when real supernatural activities are happening, and Christians should avoid those at all costs.
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Yeah, like Ouija boards. There is just so much documentary evidence. And it is a literal channeling session.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
So our church library had a copy and I browsed it. On p. 155 he said that while most magic is nonsense (and I agree), it does open a door to demonic activity. That seems to be what I am saying.
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BayouHuguenot said:
So our church library had a copy and I browsed it. On p. 155 he said that while most magic is nonsense (and I agree), it does open a door to demonic activity. That seems to be what I am saying.
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That's no surprise and no one has denied that this can be true. The problems lie with popular views on exorcism, identifying demonic types, etc. Leahy's view is that demons are active (of course), but the particulars of what is going on spiritually in any given apparently demonic situation are unknown to us- that is for God to know. In a situation where one would typically think that a person is demon possessed, or some other demonic activity is afoot, we aren't to perform exorcisms or try to cast out demons, ghosts and such. The solution for every such problem is the same: earnest prayer and God's word. He quotes Luther: "We cannot expel demons with certain ceremonies and words, as Jesus Christ , the prophets, and the apostles did. All we can do is in the name of Jesus to pray the Lord God, of his infinite mercy, to deliver the possessed persons. And if our prayer is offered up in full faith, we are assured by Christ himself (John 16:23) that it will be efficacious and overcome all the devil's resistance. I might mention many instances of this. But we cannot of ourselves expel the evil spirits, nor must we even attempt it."
 
BayouHuguenot said:
Since "Demon-possession" somewhat begs the question in terms of what's happening, we will call it "multiple personalities."
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There is documentary evidence of ouija boards leading to mulptiple personality disorder/demonic activity?

Can you provide a link to some of this evidence?
 
Tom Hart said:
Can you provide a link to some of this evidence?
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Why? It's just going to get dismissed a priori (see any one of Earl's posts). Before we can talk about evidence we have to talk about worldview implications of evidence. I have provided l inks on other threads concerning verifying the supernatural. I'll see where i put them.
 
Jeri Tanner said:
That's no surprise and no one has denied that this can be true.
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Earl does.
Jeri Tanner said:
Leahy's view is that demons are active (of course), but the particulars of what is going on spiritually in any given apparently demonic situation are unknown to us- that is for God to know.
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Yes and no. The only thing I would say to that is God has revealed a lot about the unseen world. Our problem is that we limit it to two different entities (angeloi and daimonoia) and ignore everything else he has said (archons, thronoi, etc).
Jeri Tanner said:
In a situation where one would typically think that a person is demon possessed, or some other demonic activity is afoot, we aren't to perform exorcisms or try to cast out demons, ghosts and such.
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That's a morally binding statement for which you don't have any evidence.
Jeri Tanner said:
The solution for every such problem is the same: earnest prayer and God's word.
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Strictly speaking, it would also include fasting.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
Yes and no. The only thing I would say to that is God has revealed a lot about the unseen world. Our problem is that we limit it to two different entities (angeloi and daimonoia) and ignore everything else he has said (archons, thronoi, etc).
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What did God say about archons and thronoi that causes a problem if we ignore it? And where does he say it, if you don't mind some Scripture references? (Would really like to know.)


BayouHuguenot said:
That's a morally binding statement for which you don't have any evidence.
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There is evidence, the Biblical data I spoke of earlier, with which you never really interact (that I've seen). You take the narratives of Scripture and make the deeds done by Christ and his apostles to be normative for those who aren't Christ, prophets, or his apostles. You have a different view, I guess, where no miracle performed by Christ or his apostles is out of the reach of ordinary laypeople of today to perform. Where does it say in the NT that raising people from the dead can't be done by me or you? And so on.
 
Jeri Tanner said:
What did God say about archons and thronoi that causes a problem if we ignore it? And where does he say it, if you don't mind some Scripture references? (Would really like to know.)
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Ephesians 2:2. All over Ephesians. archonta tes exousias tou aeros

God isn't going to punish us if we ignore it. We just impoverish our theology.
Jeri Tanner said:
ou take the narratives of Scripture and make the deeds done by Christ and his apostles to be normative for those who aren't Christ, prophets, or his apostles. You have a different view, I guess, where no miracle performed by Christ or his apostles is out of the reach of ordinary laypeople of today to perform.
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Correct. I presuppose continuity, not discontinuity.
Jeri Tanner said:
There is evidence, the Biblical data I spoke of earlier, with which you never really interact (that I've seen).
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Could you remind me of those verses?
 
Tom Hart said:
Best not to claim evidence and then fail to provide it, though.
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I am also not going to do other people's homework, either. When I get time, I will get to it. I'm not eager, though, since it will just be dismissed.

I might go there when I am spiritually ready. I just went to some of the sites that expose them and even then I felt spiritually dirty. This isn't like looking for the Ark of the Covenant. This type of material is readily available.
 
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