arapahoepark
Puritan Board Professor
When you say Progressive is it in all ways (broad evangelical)? Or...?
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From SBTS to Covenant?
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I don't know if he coined it but I recall being surprised at the identification and use of the term progressive (note it is in quote marks) as the term for that side, but see the former CTS chancellor's article here defining the 3 groups in the PCA (writing from not the traditionaist side; please note the objectionable term):
http://byfaithonline.com/the-state-of-the-pca/
For a confessionalist/conservative response see this:
http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2015/05/dear-bryan-replying-to-the-sta-1.php
http://byfaithonline.com/the-state-of-the-pca/
For a confessionalist/conservative response see this:
http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2015/05/dear-bryan-replying-to-the-sta-1.php
I have five kids, grown now. I vote for moving by the grandparents if the money works out.
Keep in mind that if your wife is a sympathetic, merciful type of person, she will be inundated with more "counseling" than she can possibly handle just in her relationships with other moms and at church. There will be women who are depressed, or have an unhappy marriage, and endless conversations about problems with kids. Courses are fine and she will learn a lot, but her gifts will be used even if she never goes professional. Personally I know all kinds of people who can't afford 85-95-120 dollars per hour, so they don't get professional counsel even if they want it. Yes they could talk to the pastors and elders but some women want to talk to a woman. So they vent and dump and talk to people who care but lack the skills to help steer them in the right direction. Your wife may discover she is swamped with needy people just living her life.
Keep in mind that if your wife is a sympathetic, merciful type of person, she will be inundated with more "counseling" than she can possibly handle just in her relationships with other moms and at church. There will be women who are depressed, or have an unhappy marriage, and endless conversations about problems with kids. Courses are fine and she will learn a lot, but her gifts will be used even if she never goes professional. Personally I know all kinds of people who can't afford 85-95-120 dollars per hour, so they don't get professional counsel even if they want it. Yes they could talk to the pastors and elders but some women want to talk to a woman. So they vent and dump and talk to people who care but lack the skills to help steer them in the right direction. Your wife may discover she is swamped with needy people just living her life.
TylerRay
Puritan Board Graduate
Chad,
Have you considered Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary or Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary? Both of these schools will provide you with a much more Old School Presbyterian/Classically Reformed education. From what I can tell, both SBTS and CTS will present you with a VERY broadly Reformed perspective. I wouldn't want to be educated in Reformed theology by men who take untold numbers of exceptions to the confessions that are intended to constitute the consensus of Reformed ministers and elders.
Have you considered Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary or Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary? Both of these schools will provide you with a much more Old School Presbyterian/Classically Reformed education. From what I can tell, both SBTS and CTS will present you with a VERY broadly Reformed perspective. I wouldn't want to be educated in Reformed theology by men who take untold numbers of exceptions to the confessions that are intended to constitute the consensus of Reformed ministers and elders.
Thanks, Lynnie, for the info. My wife does want to further her education at the Chicago School as well. They are great for psychology. Very few get in with a mere BA, so having an MA gets her foot in the door. She wants to do this professionally and in the church. We will see where God leads, though.
Hey Tyler,
Yes, I have. I actually contacted the admissions at GPTS. Since they are not accredited yet, they wouldn't do any good for furthering into a PhD program. I may have missed mentioning that in the first post.
Thank you all! This is very helpful. My wife and I have been praying non-stop about it all.
Reagan, brother, thank you. Yes, the paedo has been my hardest area. The others (gov, reformed, etc.), not so much. The baptism was what I have been most used to. It is still a bit of a hurdle due to natural baptist instincts.
And you are right. We do need to be praising God for what He has given. I think this forum is helping me see that SBTS is yet a good place still to be. We are still praying but we've got great guidance thus far.
Blessings, brother!
TylerRay
Puritan Board Graduate
If accreditation is a big deal, consider Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary. They have ATS accreditation.
However, a degree from an unaccredited seminary will not necessarily bar you from pursuing advanced degrees. I recommend contacting the school you intend to attend for post-grad studies, and ask if they will accept students from such a school.
Dr. Ryan McGraw is a good example of a GPTS alum who earned a PhD (from The University of the Free State, SA).
Where do you intend to go for Th.M. and Ph.D. studies?
Also, note that PRTS has Th.M. and Ph.D. programs, and GPTS has Th.M. and Th.D. programs.
Good point. GPTS said that it would be easy to get into a confessional school like WTS or somewhere of the like. If we went overseas (highly unlikely), no where would take GPTS.
If we went back to SBTS, it is likely they would take it.
So, we have no clue where the Lord is leading us in that way
I'm looking more New Testament studies for the PhD, but uncertain the focus.
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
Good point. GPTS said that it would be easy to get into a confessional school like WTS or somewhere of the like. If we went overseas (highly unlikely), no where would take GPTS.
If we went back to SBTS, it is likely they would take it.
So, we have no clue where the Lord is leading us in that way
Part of what helped me make up my mind about staying at SBTS rather than transferring to CTS is that, strangely enough, while CTS was (on paper) a "confessional school," they were teaching - in my hearing during my campus visit - things that were actually to the left of anything I was being taught at SBTS. And when I walked into the bookstore at CTS I discovered that many of the texts were written by guys I was studying under at SBTS. Go figure. For me the choice was clear. But upon my graduation it seemed like everyone I encountered who was a grad of CTS was either on the left of our denomination OR had strong FV sympathies and subsequently became Anglican. I am strongly in favor of defunding CTS and severing denominational ties to that school.
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
I've come to the position that the Joining and Receiving ended up to be a big mistake. If the OPC had ended up in the mix, it might have balanced out.
Thanks, Ben!
Due to costs, it looks like we might be staying. Even moving itself is hefty now. What a challenging season, but a good one. God wouldn't have us here if He didn't want us here.
I have too. While I tend to now think that there was no more than at most a minority at the PCA's founding who understood let alone favored the strict confessionalism of the PCUS conservatives of the 1930s and prior, the sentiments of the New School RPCES overwhelmed any Old School tendencies. The OPC coming in at the time as well, as was planned, might have made it a fairer fight; or maybe not, depending on how much Old School Presbyterianism still dominated at the time and was understood in the OPC. If you've read Bill Smith's take on this (ex PCA now an Reformed Episcopalian, so not writing for a pro Old School Presbyterian conviction), he states the case for this in an old blog article. I cited his presentation in my bit on the PCA and the Sabbath that ran in the 12th issue of The Confessional Presbyterian last year.
In 1982 the complexion of the PCA changed with the
joining and receiving of the RPCES. While on paper the
RPCES had the same or similar doctrinal statements
with regard to Sabbath doctrine and practice, there
was a significant difference as to subscription to doctrinal
standards. The RPCES came from a New School
background as far as the question of subscription and
exceptions to doctrinal standards. Bill Smith provides
a helpful analysis of the merger:
It was not clear at the time of Joining and Receiving (J&R)
in 1982 what the impact of the influx of the RPCES would
be, but time has proved that it broadened and strengthened
the New Side/New School segment of the PCA. The
RPCES was the result of the union of the dwindling Reformed
Presbyterian Church in North America, General
Synod (a “new light” break-off from the older Covenanter
denomination), and the larger Evangelical Presbyterian
Church (formerly the Bible Presbyterian Church).
It is the dominant Evangelical Presbyterian Church that
concerns us in trying to understand the PCA. In 1936
the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) was formed
by those, both Old School and New School, who left the
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A) during the Modernist controversy.
However, the unity of this new denomination
was not to last for long. In 1937 a group left the OPC
and formed the Bible Presbyterian Church. The Bible
Presbyterian Church itself split in 1955, with a minority
following Carl McIntire. The result was that there were
two BPCs: the Columbus Synod (the majority) and the
Collingswood Synod (the McIntire group). Eventually,
the Columbus Synod renamed itself the Evangelical
Presbyterian Church, merged with the New Light Covenanters
to form the RPCES in 1964, and was received
into the PCA in 1982.
To understand the RPCES and its impact on the PCA
we have to ask why the OPC split in 1937. D. G. Hart
has demonstrated, in Defending the Faith: J. Gresham
Machen and the Crisis of Conservative Protestantism in
Modern America, that the “split paralleled almost exactly
the division earlier between Old School and New School
Presbyterians” (p.165). The need to stand against modernism
and unbelief had papered over the differences among
conservative Presbyterians, but these were soon revealed.
Machen stood for Old School strict confessionalism.
He heartily adopted strong Westminster Confession
Calvinism. Though he had led the formation of the Independent
Board for Foreign Missions, he was a Presbyterian
by conviction and practice and wanted the
Board to support only missionaries who accepted Reformed
theology and Presbyterian polity (which led to
his ouster from the Board even before the split). Machen
believed in the spirituality of the Church and in
the liberty of the Christian conscience; hence, for instance,
he did not endorse Prohibition.
These things proved too much for those who desired a
milder confessionalism (tolerant of not only premillennialism
but of dispensationalism), a minimizing of
Presbyterian distinctives and denominational differences,joining and receiving of the RPCES. While on paper the
RPCES had the same or similar doctrinal statements
with regard to Sabbath doctrine and practice, there
was a significant difference as to subscription to doctrinal
standards. The RPCES came from a New School
background as far as the question of subscription and
exceptions to doctrinal standards. Bill Smith provides
a helpful analysis of the merger:
It was not clear at the time of Joining and Receiving (J&R)
in 1982 what the impact of the influx of the RPCES would
be, but time has proved that it broadened and strengthened
the New Side/New School segment of the PCA. The
RPCES was the result of the union of the dwindling Reformed
Presbyterian Church in North America, General
Synod (a “new light” break-off from the older Covenanter
denomination), and the larger Evangelical Presbyterian
Church (formerly the Bible Presbyterian Church).
It is the dominant Evangelical Presbyterian Church that
concerns us in trying to understand the PCA. In 1936
the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) was formed
by those, both Old School and New School, who left the
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A) during the Modernist controversy.
However, the unity of this new denomination
was not to last for long. In 1937 a group left the OPC
and formed the Bible Presbyterian Church. The Bible
Presbyterian Church itself split in 1955, with a minority
following Carl McIntire. The result was that there were
two BPCs: the Columbus Synod (the majority) and the
Collingswood Synod (the McIntire group). Eventually,
the Columbus Synod renamed itself the Evangelical
Presbyterian Church, merged with the New Light Covenanters
to form the RPCES in 1964, and was received
into the PCA in 1982.
To understand the RPCES and its impact on the PCA
we have to ask why the OPC split in 1937. D. G. Hart
has demonstrated, in Defending the Faith: J. Gresham
Machen and the Crisis of Conservative Protestantism in
Modern America, that the “split paralleled almost exactly
the division earlier between Old School and New School
Presbyterians” (p.165). The need to stand against modernism
and unbelief had papered over the differences among
conservative Presbyterians, but these were soon revealed.
Machen stood for Old School strict confessionalism.
He heartily adopted strong Westminster Confession
Calvinism. Though he had led the formation of the Independent
Board for Foreign Missions, he was a Presbyterian
by conviction and practice and wanted the
Board to support only missionaries who accepted Reformed
theology and Presbyterian polity (which led to
his ouster from the Board even before the split). Machen
believed in the spirituality of the Church and in
the liberty of the Christian conscience; hence, for instance,
he did not endorse Prohibition.
These things proved too much for those who desired a
milder confessionalism (tolerant of not only premillennialism
but of dispensationalism), a minimizing of
and a Christian life characterized by separation
from “worldly practices.” Even though the side of the
BPC which became the EPC then the RPCES, was more
Reformed and Presbyterian and less combative than the
McIntire group, the roots remained New School; and,
though there was some indication the RPCES might
move toward Princeton Old School positions, this did
not materialize. The RPCES that joined the PCA was
and is predominantly New Side/New School and has
infused another stream of New Side/New Schoolism
into the PCA.75
75. [William H. Smith,] “What is the PCA? A New Side - New School
Church,” [http://thechristiancurmudgeonmo.blogspot.com/2013/07/
what-is-pca-new-side-new-school-church.html].
Cited in "Dropping the Subject, Again? The Decline of Sabbatarianism in the Old Southern Presbyterian Church and in the Presbyterian Church in America," The Confessional Presbyterian 12 (2016): 87.
SBTS does have a great faculty: Schreiner, Haykin (one of my faves!!), Plummer (can teach Greek like no other), Allison, York, Garrett, Gentry, etc. Great men.
That's a side note
Parakaleo
Puritan Board Sophomore
Jacob Sweeney
Puritan Board Freshman
SBTS does have a great faculty: Schreiner, Haykin (one of my faves!!), Plummer (can teach Greek like no other), Allison, York, Garrett, Gentry, etc. Great men.
That's a side note
Haykin, York, Pennington, and Eric Johnson were all my favorites.
And, as an indirect answer to those questioning the decision to go to a school outside our denomination, it is worth noting that SBTS went through their confessional controversies over twenty years ago and has been growing ever since. They know what's at stake and work vigilantly to protect against it. Covenant, it seems, may be walking in blind to a challenge they've never faced before. For that reason, I would encourage anyone currently at SBTS considering a move into the PCA to stay at SBTS rather than move to Covenant. SBTS may hold a different confession that we do, but they know how to hold to a confession.
And as far as jobs go, anyone who would only be interested in hiring you because you went to their seminary is not someone who is going to lead you well. The right church wants to hire you, not your seminary. There's a reason Paul's list of qualifications for an elder all have to do with character and not where they were educated or the amount of experience they have.
Jacob, where did you go to church while in Louisville?
Jacob Sweeney
Puritan Board Freshman
For the first year and a half I was on staff on a small church on the edge of town. I'm not sure it's still around. After that we went to Sojourn until we moved back to Houston.
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