Their view regarding election really is not biblical, as God seems to play games with certain sinners in their perspective.
Last edited:
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Their view regarding election really is not biblical, as God seems to play games with certain sinners in their perspective.
Does FV reject a CoW?The excellent post by @brandonadams further convinces me that it is our duty to work day and night until the pernicious influence of mono-covenantalism is expelled forever from all Reformed circles. To paraphrase Tony Blair, we must be tough on the Federal Vision; tough on the causes of the Federal Vision.
It is not enough to disagree with the FVers on justification if we are not pulling up the whole erroneous superstructure by the roots. Doing so will also require us to reaffirm the position of the Westminster Standards, in opposition to certain forms of conditional covenantalism, that the covenant of grace is made with Christ and the elect in him. The notion that more than the elect are properly in the covenant of grace also seems to feed into certain FV ideas.
Does FV reject a CoW?
Does FV reject a CoW?
Almost to a man. DW will try to get around it with pithy sayings but they all deny a works-principle.
Yes. The Adamic Covenant to them is considered a part of the Covenant of Grace. They confuse the facts that God's reward for obedience is gracious and that his condescension is gracious as being the Covenant of Grace, as I understand them. That is not what the Covenant of Grace is in relationship to the Adamic Covenant.Does FV reject a CoW?
Do they seem to hold to done form of Catholic light salvation theology as NPP does, at least as held by NT Wright?Yes. The Adamic Covenant to them is considered a part of the Covenant of Grace. They confuse the facts that God's reward for obedience is gracious and that his condescension is gracious as being the Covenant of Grace, as I understand them. That is not what the Covenant of Grace is in relationship to the Adamic Covenant.
I love Bavinck.
https://rpcnacovenanter.wordpress.com/2012/10/16/in-the-covenant-of-grace/
Someone else will have to answer that for you. I am not knowledgeable on what Catholic Light Salvation Theology is. I am not even acquainted with the terminology.Do they seem to hold to done form of Catholic light salvation theology as NPP does, at least as held by NT Wright?
Catholics hold that one can never be sure if saved, as we need to assist God enough to merit final salvation, which to me seems a lot like the final vindication Wright and FV teach.Someone else will have to answer that for you. I am not knowledgeable on what Catholic Light Salvation Theology is. I am not even acquainted with the terminology.
Catholics hold that one can never be sure if saved, as we need to assist God enough to merit final salvation, which to me seems a lot like the final vindication Wright and FV teach.
NT Wright holds to one not sure of salvation until final judgment, would they agree with that?Yeah but you could just as easily accuse them of having x (insert other guy) light theology. They are pure Arminians, not Catholics. Catholics believe that grace is a semi-substance and we lose it by mortal and venial sin. For all of FV's faults, they don't believe that.
NT Wright holds to one not sure of salvation until final judgment, would they agree with that?
Calvinists of all people should have a firm conviction on eternal life in Christ.Perhaps. That doesn't make them Roman Catholic, though. That's the fallacy of the undistributed middle premise.
And many hard-core Predestinarian New England Puritans also held that we really couldn't (at least for many) be sure of our salvation until the final judgment.
Abraham Kuyper's descendants believed something similar.
Yes. The godfather of the FV, Shepherd, wrote a book a decade ago outlining his own views. All covenants are conditional and Christ becomes merely an example. The FV all follow that model.Does FV reject a CoW?
Jesus to them would then be the example how we should obey God then? Example, but not our sin substitute ?Yes. The godfather of the FV, Shepherd, wrote a book a decade ago outlining his own views. All covenants are conditional and Christ becomes merely an example. The FV all follow that model.
Someone else will have to answer that for you. I am not knowledgeable on what Catholic Light Salvation Theology is. I am not even acquainted with the terminology.
Those monastery breweries are overrated."Catholic light" in the sense of "Bud Light", "Coors Light", etc.
Not "Catholic Light Salvation Theology" but rather "Catholic light" salvation theology.
"Catholic light" in the sense of "Bud Light", "Coors Light", etc. "A milder (lighter) version of xxxxxx".
I am still trying to see how tha tFV could make a go into RB churches, since we would stress so much that its faith not water baptism that seals and signs us as Christians into the NC now.Wedgeworth's statements need to be qualified. If all Clark said is that this conference was playing "Seven Degrees of False Teacher Doug Wilson," then that is a fallacy. But what Clark pointed out is that Wilson still holds to everything he wrote in the Joint FV Statement. That is damning enough.
As to FV specifics today, I grant that "they've" moved on. But---do they still hold to the Joint FV Statement? That's what it comes down to.
I am still trying to see how tha tFV could make a go into RB churches, since we would stress so much that its faith not water baptism that seals and signs us as Christians into the NC now.
This do called cultural war makes me cringe, as it makes Baptists at times line up with Catholic apologists to fight that war!Both sides want to fight the Culture War and Baptists are now enlisting False Teachers like Wilson. Yeah, you're theology is (mostly) good but that won't last long with Wilson in the ranks.
What are the marks of a true church?
I would agree social media amplifies problems but in our modern context we’re not going to escape the discipleship machine that is our technology or society and it’s institutions. I would agree that the means of grace are primary. No one is denigrating faithful pastors who don’t have conferences, podcasts, etc.
However TGC and other groups and leaders with outsized platforms, large churches, and outsized influence do exactly what I pointed out in my quoted post and it trickles down to people in the pews and it ultimately affects the denominations.
Hence my question earlier on in this thread, what ever happened to that pro-homosexual marriage and agenda, pro abortion PCA elder who ran for civil magistrate? The answer is ultimately, nothing.
At some point it needs to be addressed.
Does anyone remember the Baptist Don Garlington who became a little wobbly in his theology? The Federal vision had many different strains. The main issue most seemed to have against the FV was concerning the New Paul Perspective that infiltrated the Church.
Maybe this is a good thing so that we can revisit this issue. Sola Fide was totally under attack. It still is.