Ecclesiastical Garb and Acts 13

[PointingToChrist]

Why can't a Reformed pastor wear a collar? If he is approached, and it comes up in conversation, he can explain who he is and what his denomination is. Maybe the collar is something we should reclaim, rather than abandon it to Rome.

 

[JennyG]

You can't possibly mistake a Catholic priest's collar for a Protestant (Anglican, presbyterian, whatever) dog collar. Superficially they're similar, but at least over here, clerical collars are still familiar enough to churchgoers for the difference to stand out at a glance. The unchurched might not see it like that, but then you can spell out ALL the differences to them, and they will still be none the wiser :S
I've never seen a minister wear Geneva bands or a gown except during service - but then I think they add solemnity to the occasion. It's a bit like school uniform (which I'm told is hardly known in the US either, though it hangs on here) - if the kids can wear whatever they like, then all they can think of is their, and each other's, clothes. Uniform can take away that distraction, making it easier to keep the mind on what the main business is supposed to be.
I expect the gradual disuse of ministers' formal attire is connected with the decrease in formality right across society. A few decades ago grammar school teachers were known as "masters", addressed as "Sir" and always taught in black academic gowns! (they added the mortar boards and hoods on gala occasions). If anyone thinks it's a good thing we've dispensed with all that, they shouldn't forget that along with the formality, a lot of respect and discipline got lost too...

 

[lynnie]

I still think the regulative principle needs to be thought through better here.

You can wear a uniform on the street, burn incense at home, light candles at home, and dance if you like. Are these things appropriate for the worship gathering or are they Temple worship that we are told is no longer worship in spirit and truth?

If you don't care about the RPW, fine, wear a robe. But when I see people who claim to hold to it wearing vestments, or "priestly linens" during worship, sorry but I think its a double standard. We are all high priests now and we can all go into the holy of holies. If you want it to be a mark of ordination, well, is that biblical? Is that how we distinguish the ordained from the unordained?

Just asking, I might be wrong and I am no expert, but really, I just don't get this in light of RPW concerns.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

A uniform noting a profession or office is not a violation of the regulative principle; wearing garb invested with some kind of superstitious significance is. Beyond that scriptural rules governing things otherwise indifferent should be observed (i.e. if some kind of gear has a scandalous rep you avoid it).

 

[Grillsy]

Why did we stop wearing collars over the last 75-100 years? Was it because of Rome? Off topic, I know.

It was due to the breakdown of institutionalism and a rejection of the minister as a public officer whose function is to be protected and promoted by law.

Thank you for the answer Rev.
Do ministers still wear clerical garb in the Reformed churches in Australia?

 

[JennyG]

A uniform noting a profession or office is not a violation of the regulative principle; wearing garb invested with some kind of superstitious significance is. Beyond that scriptural rules governing things otherwise indifferent should be observed (i.e. if some kind of gear has a scandalous rep you avoid it).

that's just where I would want to draw the line - between the functional and self-effacing plain gown and bands of the old-school Scottish minister, and the bad vestments favoured by catholics and some strands of Anglicanism (generally full of symbolism)

 

[LawrenceU]

Okay, I'm a baptist. I can right now look to my left and see two clerical collared shirts hanging in the closet. Do I wear them? Sometimes. It depends upon the situation.

 

[Willem van Oranje]

How about wearing a jacket or a polo shirt with the name of your theological seminary blazened on it, when walking around town. Would that set you out as likely a pastor? Would that be a good modern equivalent? Some seminaries sell those.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

How about wearing a jacket or a polo shirt with the name of your theological seminary blazened on it, when walking around town. Would that set you out as likely a pastor? Would that be a good modern equivalent? Some seminaries sell those.

Well some of us would not want to be associated with our seminary of record.

But seriously interesting question. Should Pastor's "set themselves apart" in daily life?

 

[Willem van Oranje]

How about wearing a jacket or a polo shirt with the name of your theological seminary blazened on it, when walking around town. Would that set you out as likely a pastor? Would that be a good modern equivalent? Some seminaries sell those.

Well some of us would not want to be associated with our seminary of record.

But seriously interesting question. Should Pastor's "set themselves apart" in daily life?

I can sympathize with your feelings about PTS, but even then, it could lead to some opportunities if you run into someone who is mainline Presbyterian or Methodist, and others won't know the difference to distinguish it as a "neo-orthodox" school. My school, GCTS is not that, but it's still pretty broad. Yet I would probably sport a shirt or jacket of theirs around, since most people, if they have heard of it at all, would still associate GCTS with biblical conservatism, even Reformed theology.

In answer to your question, probably, if it could lead to opportunities. It would be nice for people to know that a pastor is there if they need one. And you would want them to talk to you, wouldn't you?

 

[Steve Curtis]

Okay, I'm a baptist. I can right now look to my left and see two clerical collard shirts hanging in the closet. Do I wear them? Sometimes. It depends upon the situation.

Hey, I'm from the Deep South, too, but I didn't know they made shirts out of those! Mm-mmm

[I would interject a "wink" here, but that function is, well, malfunctioning at the moment!]

 

[LawrenceU]

Okay, I'm a baptist. I can right now look to my left and see two clerical collard shirts hanging in the closet. Do I wear them? Sometimes. It depends upon the situation.

Hey, I'm from the Deep South, too, but I didn't know they made shirts out of those! Mm-mmm

[I would interject a "wink" here, but that function is, well, malfunctioning at the moment!]

They are actually a dual purpose shirt. If you face a shortage of good food you can boil it up and have a good meal. I always kept a neck bone and corn bread in my back pocket just incase.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

How about wearing a jacket or a polo shirt with the name of your theological seminary blazened on it, when walking around town. Would that set you out as likely a pastor? Would that be a good modern equivalent? Some seminaries sell those.

Well some of us would not want to be associated with our seminary of record.

But seriously interesting question. Should Pastor's "set themselves apart" in daily life?

I can sympathize with your feelings about PTS, but even then, it could lead to some opportunities if you run into someone who is mainline Presbyterian or Methodist, and others won't know the difference to distinguish it as a "neo-orthodox" school. My school, GCTS is not that, but it's still pretty broad. Yet I would probably sport a shirt or jacket of theirs around, since most people, if they have heard of it at all, would still associate GCTS with biblical conservatism, even Reformed theology.

In answer to your question, probably, if it could lead to opportunities. It would be nice for people to know that a pastor is there if they need one. And you would want them to talk to you, wouldn't you?

I agree. I wear PTS stuff. I was being a tad facetious.

 

[N. Eshelman]

Okay... you all didn't like the physician of the soul.... but how about this...

When I became ordained one of our members gave me a gift to distinguish me as an elder. She has served on the Cush4Christ team (which is an RP mission in Souther Sudan). The tribe that they work with is called the Dinka and the elders of the tribes carry "elders' sticks" which set them apart as elders in the community.

As her new teaching elder, she was able to find (and I guess it was VERY DIFFICULT to obtain) and give to me a Dinka elder's stick. I thought of bringing it to synod last month, but it hangs in a stately position in my study.

(This is not me in the picture, by the way. It's a REAL Dinka elder).

 

[SRoper]

A uniform noting a profession or office is not a violation of the regulative principle; wearing garb invested with some kind of superstitious significance is. Beyond that scriptural rules governing things otherwise indifferent should be observed (i.e. if some kind of gear has a scandalous rep you avoid it).

that's just where I would want to draw the line - between the functional and self-effacing plain gown and bands of the old-school Scottish minister, and the bad vestments favoured by catholics and some strands of Anglicanism (generally full of symbolism)

Ha ha, thank you for reminding me of that site! It's been a while since I looked at it. The woman with the stole listing the names of women in the bible cracked me up.

 

[LawrenceU]

Okay... you all didn't like the physician of the soul.... but how about this...

When I became ordained one of our members gave me a gift to distinguish me as an elder. She has served on the Cush4Christ team (which is an RP mission in Souther Sudan). The tribe that they work with is called the Dinka and the elders of the tribes carry "elders' sticks" which set them apart as elders in the community.

As her new teaching elder, she was able to find (and I guess it was VERY DIFFICULT to obtain) and give to me a Dinka elder's stick. I thought of bringing it to synod last month, but it hangs in a stately position in my study.

(This is not me in the picture, by the way. It's a REAL Dinka elder).

Now, that is cool. It is a great honour to carry an elder stick. I had a friend in college from the Dinka. His father was an elder. He came to the States once while we were in school. That man had more dignity and command presence than anyone I've ever met.

 

[MW]

Do ministers still wear clerical garb in the Reformed churches in Australia?

It is now extremely rare. To show how uniform the collar is disused -- the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland minister in Australia told me that he was given a special dispensation by the Synod so that he was not obliged to wear one. I wore one for the first two years of ministry but eventually discarded it because it was counter-productive; reformed people saw it as an affront.

For Benjamin -- I would trace the anti-institutionalism to three influences. First, the post-modern quest for authenticity leads people to look with suspicion on any authority which stands between the individual and the genuine expression of himself. If church and state are recognised as institutional in any sense it is only in so far as these have been compromised by diversity and over-sensitivity. Secondly, the post-Christian belief that Christianity only served a formative role in leading Western societies to embrace values like civil liberty, and that it is no longer in the interests of liberty to give Christianity any place in civil life. Thirdly, the success of the post-Christendom movement within the church which has held aloft ideals like "Honest to God" and "Body-Ministry," and thereby introduced highly influential concepts such as relevance and equality into the everyday thinking of most evangelical Christians.

 

[lynnie]

Thirdly, the success of the post-Christendom movement within the church which has held aloft ideals like "Honest to God" and "Body-Ministry," and thereby introduced highly influential concepts such as relevance and equality into the everyday thinking of most evangelical Christians.

Hum...last time I looked we Reformed believed in the priesthood of all believers, which is what vestments wrongly opposed. I assume you mean ordained versus unordained? Yeah, churches are supposed to have elders that rule. But we still have equality of access to the mercy seat, not equality of function in the church, and robes can be well intentioned but misleading. Just my opinion. And the bible has plenty to say about body ministry, even if it does not all take place for an hour Sunday morning. That is not post Christian, it is scripture

 

[MW]

Hum...last time I looked we Reformed believed in the priesthood of all believers, which is what vestments wrongly opposed. I assume you mean ordained versus unordained? Yeah, churches are supposed to have elders that rule. But we still have equality of access to the mercy seat, not equality of function in the church, and robes can be well intentioned but misleading. Just my opinion. And the bible has plenty to say about body ministry, even if it does not all take place for an hour Sunday morning. That is not post Christian, it is scripture

I provided historical reasons for anti-institutionalism; I wasn't giving biblical evaluation one way or the other. Your reply serves to show how vibrantly the post-Christendom ideals resonate in today's evangelicals. Appealing to Scripture apart from history to justify a stance on history is not very helpful to discussion.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Thanks as usual Rev. Winzer.

What do you make of the case in acts 13 of Paul and his compatriots being recognized as teachers?

 

[py3ak]

Hum...last time I looked we Reformed believed in the priesthood of all believers, which is what vestments wrongly opposed. I assume you mean ordained versus unordained? Yeah, churches are supposed to have elders that rule. But we still have equality of access to the mercy seat, not equality of function in the church, and robes can be well intentioned but misleading.

Lynnie, you've mentioned several times now in this thread that you consider vestments a violation of the RPW because "we are all priests now". But if you want to support that from 1 Peter 2:9, it's worthwhile to remember that it's a quote from the OT (Exodus 19:6). So the priesthood of all believers is not quite a NT distinctive; the liberty of access is not due to the elimination of an order of priesthood, but to the coming of Christ (after all, in the OT, even the high priest didn't have free access to the holiest of all).

But it's not even necessary to go into that to answer the point. Because "clerical garb" isn't automatically "priestly vestments" implying that someone has superior access to God anymore than scrubs or a lab coat imply that medical workers are full of grace. Think about the example of a military chaplain: my understanding is that he has particular insignia that distinguish his uniform from that of the other officers. That's not telling everyone else that he's particularly holy, but simply informing you what his function within the organization is. So if a minister wears a robe or a collar, it's not intrinsically or necessarily a claim to a special priestly status at all, but merely a sort of uniform or standard wear, as lawyers tend to wear suits and maintenance guys often have a t-shirt with their company's name on it.

 

[lynnie]

Reuben, yes, I understand the concept of a uniform. And when worn for that reason there is nothing wrong with the heart or doctrine. But can it make weaker brethren stumble into looking to a pastor instead of looking to God in some ways? I think so, having known so many ex catholics and having gone through the charismatic shepherding movement in the 70s where indeed men stood in the place of God. I find it to be sacerdotal. Just something to consider. I was thinking yesterday that I don't even know what my pastor wears ( suit or shirt or tie, I literally never noticed in the last nine months.) He blends in. I find robes to be conspicuous. Just my opinion. But thanks.

 

[Willem van Oranje]

Reuben, yes, I understand the concept of a uniform. And when worn for that reason there is nothing wrong with the heart or doctrine. But can it make weaker brethren stumble into looking to a pastor instead of looking to God in some ways? I think so, having known so many ex catholics and having gone through the charismatic shepherding movement in the 70s where indeed men stood in the place of God. I find it to be sacerdotal. Just something to consider. I was thinking yesterday that I don't even know what my pastor wears ( suit or shirt or tie, I literally never noticed in the last nine months.) He blends in. I find robes to be conspicuous. Just my opinion. But thanks.

When the pastor is preaching, the sheep should hear not his voice, but the shepherd's voice. It is not merely man, but God speaking to his people. The preacher is not preaching merely as a man, but as God's mouthpiece. The surrounding circumstances should be calculated to reflect this reality, and not diminish from it.

In some circumstances, the suit and tie can be every bit as conspicuous as a robe, if the pastor is the only one wearing one.

 

[alhembd]

In the Free Church of Scotland a number of pastors wear a clerical collar. They usually wear it when performing ecclesiastical duties.

Also, in the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland, when performing clerical duties, the minister will wear a collar when in Scotland. The reason given is that it marks the minister as a minister of the State Church. The Roman Church was the State Church until Knox, afterward, the Presbyterian Church was. The Presbyterian ministers, for the most part, continued wearing ecclesiastical collars and robes, though sometimes the style of the collar varied.

When a minister of the Free Church or the Free Presbyterian Church wears a collar, it denotes that, although his Church is no longer the State Church, the minister nonetheless still believes in a State Church.

 

[py3ak]

But can it make weaker brethren stumble into looking to a pastor instead of looking to God in some ways?

The counter to that is that a suit could make unbelievers or weaker brethren stumble by making the pastor come aross as a CEO or lawyerly type (there are some who think of the church as a business, and in some churches that is a true perception), and a Hawaiian shirt could make people stumble by forcing them to wonder why this guy thinks he's cool. But if we've come to considerations of whether it's convenient, then we are plainly no longer on the turf of the RPW - if it's a question of the 2nd Commandment, there is no need to ask about people's reactions.

 

[MW]

What do you make of the case in acts 13 of Paul and his compatriots being recognized as teachers?

It would be an argument from silence, so one should be wary of building anything on it. It is just as possible that they had a prior acquaintance.

 

[Willem van Oranje]

What do you make of the case in acts 13 of Paul and his compatriots being recognized as teachers?

It would be an argument from silence, so one should be wary of building anything on it. It is just as possible that they had a prior acquaintance.

Being Jewish males, it would have been usual for them to have been asked to teach in the synagogue.

 

[dudley]

I am against any Reformed Protestant pastor wearing a the "Roman Collar

I am against any Reformed Protestant pastor wearing a the "Roman Collar If a reformed Pastor wishes to wear a collar it should be the style of Anglican and Protestant Collar, to clearly distinguish them as Protestant clergy. Pastors who do not wear clerical collar or gown are biblically correct because there is no biblical warrant to wear it.
I think the only garb a Reformed Protestant pastor should wear at worship services and the celebration of the Lords Supper is a Geneva gown and also not required by scripture.

 

[Jack K]

I thought the protestant collar was supposed to denote servanthood. It looks like a dog collar or prisoner's shackle for a reason. The pastor wearing it is ordained as a servant of the gospel. Any honor he receives from it should not be due to superiority, but due to the peculiar Christian honor that comes with servanthood.

I've never been part of a church where the pastor wore such a collar. But I have a fondness for the idea of a man ordained to the pastorate wearing it everywhere—services, visits, the supermarket—as a constant sign to others and a reminder to himself that his life is one of a servant to the gospel.

Of course, as the conversation on this thread shows, few people these days see the collar that way. So if I were a pastor I'd probably think twice before actually wearing the collar. But I do like the idea. Viewed as a distinctive and servant-identifying mark, it has some merit.

 

[Willem van Oranje]

I am against any Reformed Protestant pastor wearing a the "Roman Collar If a reformed Pastor wishes to wear a collar it should be the style of Anglican and Protestant Collar, to clearly distinguish them as Protestant clergy. Pastors who do not wear clerical collar or gown are biblically correct because there is no biblical warrant to wear it.
I think the only garb a Reformed Protestant pastor should wear at worship services and the celebration of the Lords Supper is a Geneva gown and also not required by scripture.

What about the "academic gown?" Does anyone just wear the gown they wore at their MDiv graduation?

---------- Post added at 09:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 PM ----------

I thought the protestant collar was supposed to denote servanthood. It looks like a dog collar or prisoner's shackle for a reason. The pastor wearing it is ordained as a servant of the gospel. Any honor he receives from it should not be due to superiority, but due to the peculiar Christian honor that comes with servanthood.

I've never been part of a church where the pastor wore such a collar. But I have a fondness for the idea of a man ordained to the pastorate wearing it everywhere—services, visits, the supermarket—as a constant sign to others and a reminder to himself that his life is one of a servant to the gospel.

Of course, as the conversation on this thread shows, few people these days see the collar that way. So if I were a pastor I'd probably think twice before actually wearing the collar. But I do like the idea. Viewed as a distinctive and servant-identifying mark, it has some merit.

Your post shows the true heart of a pastor. But from a layman's perspective, the pastor should be viewed as a superior authority. If my pastor gives me some advice, I'm generally going to take it as being the most authoritative insight, unless I can disprove it from the Scriptures. And together with the elders, he is absolutely an authority to be obeyed in the church. I. E., a "superior."