Do you prefer hymns over psalms?

[BG]

Brother, a quick search shows the prophets like Jeremiah, Isaiah, habakkuk, etc., composing songs and dirges. Even the "Song" of Solomon. Mary had a nice song and the ESV titles it as "Mary's Song of Praise." Jesus sung a hymn we see, in acts we see the singing of hymns. Then in Revelation we have new songs. To me it's clear, but I understand you have your own views of the matter. I just wouldn't be so critical towards those who oppose you over this, because the other side has clear and good support in my opinion. Blessings!

Ryan, can you please provide evidence for the extra biblical songs that you spoke of in an earlier post?

No one disputes the fact that there are songs inspired of God in the Bible.

Can you provide a uninspired songbook from the time of David or the time of the apostles ?

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

Can we sing those non-Psalm inspired songs in the Bible?

Sorry, I'm not sure about the extra-biblical songs you're speaking of. Solomon wrote over a thousand though. Also, how about an early church source of singing man made songs in worship?

 

[timfost]

Ryan, can you please provide evidence for the extra biblical songs that you spoke of in an earlier post?

No one disputes the fact that there are songs inspired of God in the Bible.

Can you provide a uninspired songbook from the time of David or the time of the apostles ?

1 Kings 4:32:

"He spoke three thousand proverbs, and his songs were one thousand and five."

 

[BG]

Can we sing those non-Psalm inspired songs in the Bible?

Sorry, I'm not sure about the extra-biblical songs you're speaking of. Solomon wrote over a thousand though. Also, how about an early church source of singing man made songs in worship?

Your argument was that we are to sing uninspired songs because the Bible uses the words new song and hymn I asked you to produce those uninspired songs that the church sang during the time of David and the Apostles.

 

[BG]

1 Kings 4:32:

"He spoke three thousand proverbs, and his songs were one thousand and five."

Can you produce any proof of those songs or proof that the church ever sang them?

Could you be influenced by the fact that you have a vested interest in this issue?

 

[De Jager]

Can you produce any proof of those songs or proof that the church ever sang them?

Could you be influenced by the fact that you have a vested interest in this issue?

Let's not act like any of us don't have a vested interest in this issue. I don't think anyone is completely impartial.

 

[timfost]

Can you produce any proof of those songs or proof that the church ever sang them?

Could you be influenced by the fact that you have a vested interest in this issue?

Bill,

I just gave the reference. I do not know what kind of songs they were so I cannot say if they were acceptable for worship.

Isaak is correct, we all have a vested interest. Hopefully we can look at this rationally and impartially, regardless of our specific positions since we seek truth, not validation of our specific tradition.

I do appreciate these discussions. Hopefully we all learn from them and understand each other better through them. I think it's unfortunate how emotionally charged the issue can be.

I'm thankful that my EP brethren seek to obey God in this matter even if I think the position is incorrect. I hope you can say the same for non-EP.

 

[De Jager]

An important thing that I and others need to remember on this is that no one will ever stand before God without requiring many, many sins of worship forgiven through the blood of Christ. That does not mean that we should not strive for truth - not at all. But let's just remember that even if we think our position is right and another's is wrong, we should aim to correct only out of humility. If it were not for God's grace, we would all be heretics of the highest order.

 

[Grant]

heretics of the highest order.

That sounds like an great book title

or sermon title

 

[BG]

This Issue is far deeper than psalm singing, it strikes at the heart of all that we believe. The world around us is rejecting all forms of truth on all sides by redefining everything, a man is now a women and a women is now a man, homosexuality is now okay and coming to a city near you very soon pedophilia and beastiality. The world is following the Church’s example of uncertainty. Things are no longer black and white but fuzzy. The Bible is insufficient to tell us how to live and the confession is now fluid and flexible. We allow people to redefine and reinterpret the truths we hold most dear. In this thread men are trying to redefine the words “new Song” and “hymn” to have a more modern and more culturally acceptable meaning (hymn in Nashville in 2019 means Fanny Crosby and Steven Curtis Chapman but not at the time of the Apostles). If the church no longer has the ability to determine what truth is then we are in big trouble. We have offered each other acceptance and affirmation for far to long. The Church must proclaim a certain and ridged truth to the people. The Church needs more Masculine and Violent men to lead her. For now it looks like the truth has been slain in the street and the church is holding the knife.

 

[timfost]

This Issue is far deeper than psalm singing, it strikes at the heart of all that we believe. The world around us is rejecting all forms of truth on all sides by redefining everything, a man is now a women and a women is now a man, homosexuality is now okay and coming to a city near you very soon pedophilia and beastiality. The world is following the Church’s example of uncertainty. Things are no longer black and white but fuzzy. The Bible is insufficient to tell us how to live and the confession is now fluid and flexible. We allow people to redefine and reinterpret the truths we hold most dear. In this thread men are trying to redefine the words “new Song” and “hymn” to have a more modern and more culturally acceptable meaning (hymn in Nashville in 2019 means Fanny Crosby and Steven Curtis Chapman but not at the time of the Apostles). If the church no longer has the ability to determine what truth is then we are in big trouble. We have offered each other acceptance and affirmation for far to long. The Church must proclaim a certain and ridged truth to the people. The Church needs more Masculine and Violent men to lead her. For now it looks like the truth has been slain in the street and the church is holding the knife.

Bill, it would be wise not to make mountains out of mole hills.

The Scottish minister John Eadie lists a number of very early theologians who differ with you. Please read his commentary on Eph. 5:19 bookmarked below:

https://books.google.com/books?id=vMAUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA408&lpg=PA408&dq="Under+the+relaxing+influence+of+wine+the+tongue"&source=bl&ots=_dZGyMQDMI&sig=ACfU3U29RCnC7Y9p1Nxz3QjtJXeTYpeAzw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj81P6Nm7DjAhXbVc0KHTP7DyIQ6AEwA3oECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q="Under the relaxing influence of wine the tongue"&f=false

Hughes Oliphant Old in his book Worship: Reformed According to Scripture lists many early reformers who wrote and promoted hymns.

Your comparison does not account for history. Not even Dort's DPW is EP, though admittedly more restrictive than I think it needed to be.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

To me this is not a topic to be intense or overly zealous about. Many things in the Bible we just don't know the answers to absolutely, and we need to be graceful and open handed in dealing with brothers and sisters who disagree. If we treat every Christian who doesn't agree with us with everything, with fierce boldness as if we know absolutely what is right, we wouldn't have much fellowship with the church as a whole.

When I see people being extremely dogmatic over issues we can't fully know the right answers to, this shows me that one is valuing their opinion over the Scriptures.

Can we be certain about what adultery is, what murder is, that Christians should be baptized, that Christians should sing, that Jesus came to save sinners? Absolutely, and we should be rock solid and unwavering in such things. But not "what exactly is a hymn." In my opinion, these arguments are very petty. Nobody can prove they are right. If God wanted it more clear, I think He would have made it more clear.

Just my opinion.

 

[BG]

To me this is not a topic to be intense or overly zealous about. Many things in the Bible we just don't know the answers to absolutely, and we need to be graceful and open handed in dealing with brothers and sisters who disagree. If we treat every Christian who doesn't agree with us with everything, with fierce boldness as if we know absolutely what is right, we wouldn't have much fellowship with the church as a whole.

When I see people being extremely dogmatic over issues we can't fully know the right answers to, this shows me that one is valuing their opinion over the Scriptures.

Can we be certain about what adultery is, what murder is, that Christians should be baptized, that Christians should sing, that Jesus came to save sinners? Absolutely, and we should be rock solid and unwavering in such things. But not "what exactly is a hymn." In my opinion, these arguments are very petty. Nobody can prove they are right. If God wanted it more clear, I think He would have made it more clear.

Just my opinion.

How can you be certain about anything?

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

How can you be certain about anything?

Thankfully the Bible is certain about many many things.

 

[BG]

Thankfully the Bible is certain about many many things.

But not everything?

Either the Bible is sufficient or it isn’t.

 

[Kinghezy]

But not everything?

Either the Bible is sufficient or it isn’t.

Bible is clear in matters of salvation but not in all matters is it (perspicuity).

 

[Tom Hart]

To me this is not a topic to be intense or overly zealous about. Many things in the Bible we just don't know the answers to absolutely, and we need to be graceful and open handed in dealing with brothers and sisters who disagree. If we treat every Christian who doesn't agree with us with everything, with fierce boldness as if we know absolutely what is right, we wouldn't have much fellowship with the church as a whole.

When I see people being extremely dogmatic over issues we can't fully know the right answers to, this shows me that one is valuing their opinion over the Scriptures.

Can we be certain about what adultery is, what murder is, that Christians should be baptized, that Christians should sing, that Jesus came to save sinners? Absolutely, and we should be rock solid and unwavering in such things. But not "what exactly is a hymn." In my opinion, these arguments are very petty. Nobody can prove they are right. If God wanted it more clear, I think He would have made it more clear.

Just my opinion.

God cares about worship. So should his people.

You say some people are being "extremely dogmatic" and that "nobody can prove they are right".

I know how you feel because I've been there. When I first encountered EP I thought it was ridiculous.

I would ask that you make a serious study of the issues at hand before throwing out these overly dismissive statements.

 

[timfost]

I think Ryan is simply stating that it is not one of those issues that is as clear as we might want it to be. I don't think he's saying that it doesn't matter and truth is subjective, only that there should be understanding on both sides realizing that it's not an issue that should divide in a broader sense. We can still worship together and we affirm the same principles of worship (RPW), though we understand what that entails differently.

I hope I'm not putting words in his mouth...

 

[Taylor]

This Issue is far deeper than psalm singing, it strikes at the heart of all that we believe. The world around us is rejecting all forms of truth on all sides by redefining everything, a man is now a women and a women is now a man, homosexuality is now okay and coming to a city near you very soon pedophilia and beastiality. The world is following the Church’s example of uncertainty.

I’m sorry, but to insinuate that a rejection of EP is in any way a cause of the proliferation of relativism, transgenderism, homosexuality, and even pedophilia (!) in society, is not only utterly ridiculous, but simply libelous.

I didn’t think this could get more out of control. I’m incredulous at this point.

 

[Ed Walsh]

I was talking to my wife today about what I see as a total lack of powerful strong, unflinching Calvinistic Christians speaking the truth to our country whether they like it or whether they don't. If God does raise up such men, and I always mention the Puritan board as one possible source, it will be undeniable to all, and it will be headline news. Even in our anti-christian news purveyors will report their words. But this is not happening. At least not yet.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

God cares about worship. So should his people.

You say some people are being "extremely dogmatic" and that "nobody can prove they are right".

I know how you feel because I've been there. When I first encountered EP I thought it was ridiculous.

I would ask that you make a serious study of the issues at hand before throwing out these overly dismissive statements.

Brother Tom, I completely get what you are saying. I just know people who study the Bible for a living, who care deeply about worshipping God the way He would call us to, and they disagree over psalms and hymns, images of Jesus, what is lawful on the Sabbath, if music can be played over communion, who should be baptized, if we can use grape juice in communion, what the millennium will look like, etc. Spurgeon, Henry, Owen, Edwards, and many other enlightened geniuses in the faith wouldn't agree on many things, so how could I expect to be sure of what is right? I can believe what I think is right in these areas, but none of us can be sure. Does this make sense from my perspective?

 

[Jeri Tanner]

To me this is not a topic to be intense or overly zealous about. Many things in the Bible we just don't know the answers to absolutely, and we need to be graceful and open handed in dealing with brothers and sisters who disagree. If we treat every Christian who doesn't agree with us with everything, with fierce boldness as if we know absolutely what is right, we wouldn't have much fellowship with the church as a whole.

When I see people being extremely dogmatic over issues we can't fully know the right answers to, this shows me that one is valuing their opinion over the Scriptures.

This is what the Roman Catholic church told Calvin. They wanted him to dial it back; we understand your zeal, they said, but go easier and don’t burn so many bridges. But Calvin knew and insisted that worship was of primary importance, and must be reformed immediately, and could not be reformed gradually. He wrote about this in his bold and famous treatise, The Necessity of Reforming the Church, addressed to and described: “To the Most Invincible Emperor, Charles V, and the Most Illustrious Princes and Other Orders, Now Holding a Diet of the Empire at Spires: A Humble Exhortation Seriously to Undertake
the Task of Restoring the Church:
Presented in the Name of All Those Who Wish Christ to Reign.”

A paradigm shift is involved as one begins to see the issues surrounding worship, including the one mind and voice with which the visible church is to sing, and one biblical issue after another slowly unfolds: the unity of the visible church, God’s will for the church and state relationship, how Christ intends to conquer kings and nations. We can’t go marching out militant without the songs of Zion in our mouths. Paradigm shifts where you see something like this in Scripture make people feel urgent and zealous for the church and the cause of Christ.

Only God can bring about the work of reformation, but we should cry out to him for it because reformation brings about unity in the visible church and the salvation of many, the reformation of kings and princes, great glory to God.

Edit: A correction to say that I may be wrong about who was urging Calvin not to be overzealous; in thinking about it, it was more likely Charles V and/or other magistrates and nobility. I don’t have time to check that out right now.

 

[timfost]

Jeri,

I certainly hope you are not comparing Reformed folk who disagree with you on some of these issues as the Catholic Church to Calvin. Could you please clarify your comparison?

Thanks!

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

This is what the Roman Catholic church told Calvin. They wanted him to dial it back; we understand your zeal, they said, but go easier and don’t burn so many bridges. But Calvin knew and insisted that worship was of primary importance, and must be reformed immediately, and could not be reformed gradually. He wrote about this in his bold and famous treatise, The Necessity of Reforming the Church, addressed to and described: “To the Most Invincible Emperor, Charles V, and the Most Illustrious Princes and Other Orders, Now Holding a Diet of the Empire at Spires: A Humble Exhortation Seriously to Undertake
the Task of Restoring the Church:
Presented in the Name of All Those Who Wish Christ to Reign.”

A paradigm shift is involved as one begins to see the issues surrounding worship, including the one mind and voice with which the visible church is to sing, and one biblical issue after another slowly unfolds: the unity of the visible church, God’s will for the church and state relationship, how Christ intends to conquer kings and nations. We can’t go marching out militant without the songs of Zion in our mouths. Paradigm shifts where you see something like this in Scripture make people feel urgent and zealous for the church and the cause of Christ.

Only God can bring about the work of reformation, but we should cry out to him for it because reformation brings about unity in the visible church and the salvation of many, the reformation of kings and princes, great glory to God.

That's a good perspective. Thanks. I would say there's a big difference between the practices of a Roman catholic church and a reformed church, compared to two reformed churches with slight differences.

Maybe you didn't mean it in that context though.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

That's a good perspective. Thanks. I would say there's a big difference between the practices of a Roman catholic church and a reformed church, compared to two reformed churches with slight differences.

Maybe you didn't mean it in that context though.

I didn’t mean it in any disparaging context toward you personally or anyone on the board at all; and was not comparing the Church of Rome to faithful Reformed churches, only the call for moderation (which as it turns out I’m not sure I was right that it was the RCC, more likely the nobility.) My point was to bring up Calvin’s urgency about the reformation of worship and how he answered those who urged him to be more moderate (his answer being found in the letter he wrote.) Sorry Ryan, I can also see where using your quote may have made it seem personal.

 

[Regi Addictissimus]

Do you really find such speech appropriate to express on a public forum devoted to the discussion of Christian theology? We go from a discussion on EP to putting to death heretics? This thread should have been long closed by now.

 

[Taylor]

Given the aggression you have demonstrated toward non-EP members of Christ's own Body here on this board, all I can is, may this never be you.

You’re simply out of control.

 

[Taylor]

I can handle persecution from the world. I am just not sure how to deal with it from someone who claims to be brother.

 

[timfost]

"Then [Stephen] knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord, do not charge them with this sin.' And when he had said this, he fell asleep." (Acts 7:60)

"Then Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.'" (Luke 23:34)

These are examples of manliness.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

The member (BG) has been suspended. Please use the report feature in future to get something directly in front of all the moderators and admins. Mods and admins can't follow all the threads, and when it is the umpteenth time discussing psalms vs hymns you can understand if those few online at any time direct there energies elsewhere. When a moderator has time they may try to edit the thread, but if you see a particular post that you think needs removing please report it and we can address it.