Sorry Ruben, We cross posted. I still see you guys are going to science of the mind instead of Scripture. Just my humble opinion.
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Sorry Ruben, We cross posted. I still see you guys are going to science of the mind instead of Scripture. Just my humble opinion.
I agree Ruben. Sorry.Sorry Ruben, We cross posted. I still see you guys are going to science of the mind instead of Scripture. Just my humble opinion.
Randy, if you just say this and don't try to show us how or where, I don't think that's altogether fair. It's easy to say, "This is how I see things" but if you won't give reasons what am I supposed to do with that datum, or how am I supposed to evaluate it? I see things differently! We're at a dead end until you give me something to work with.
I agree Ruben. Sorry.Sorry Ruben, We cross posted. I still see you guys are going to science of the mind instead of Scripture. Just my humble opinion.
Randy, if you just say this and don't try to show us how or where, I don't think that's altogether fair. It's easy to say, "This is how I see things" but if you won't give reasons what am I supposed to do with that datum, or how am I supposed to evaluate it? I see things differently! We're at a dead end until you give me something to work with.
I see things differently as one who has stuck his hand in the fire. You admit you haven't. I guess we are at a dead end. I still believe Steve supported his premise in word studies of scripture and History. You have done neither. All you have done is draw out questions. It kind of sounds agnostic to me. Maybe I am out there. But my hand has been in the fire also. I have the scars. I have proof. Look at my Scars. I am skceptical of Rationalist and those who are existentialistic also. But there is much more that I believe Steve has laid out that you are denying by mere words. There is a word. It means something. It has had roots. You seem to deny this.
Randy, I have to step in to say that I have put my hand into that same fire, and come away with an entirely different view. I did drugs for a looong time. I used pot, cocaine, mescaline, mushrooms, far too much LSD, various opiates, PCP, crystal meth, hashish, hash oil, etc, etc, etc.I agree Ruben. Sorry.Sorry Ruben, We cross posted. I still see you guys are going to science of the mind instead of Scripture. Just my humble opinion.
Randy, if you just say this and don't try to show us how or where, I don't think that's altogether fair. It's easy to say, "This is how I see things" but if you won't give reasons what am I supposed to do with that datum, or how am I supposed to evaluate it? I see things differently! We're at a dead end until you give me something to work with.
I see things differently as one who has stuck his hand in the fire. You admit you haven't. I guess we are at a dead end. I still believe Steve supported his premise in word studies of scripture and History. You have done neither. All you have done is draw out questions. It kind of sounds agnostic to me. Maybe I am out there. But my hand has been in the fire also. I have the scars. I have proof. Look at my Scars. I am skceptical of Rationalist and those who are existentialistic also. But there is much more that I believe Steve has laid out that you are denying by mere words. There is a word. It means something. It has had roots. You seem to deny this.
As I said. I am not a rationalist nor am I existentialist. I am not a logistician either. I still think Steve's review is correct standing on my side. You can't present that. What is the theology of the occult. I find it hard to present the theology of Federal Vision. What is your definition of the Occult? Define it again. Please?
It is the job of pastors and elders today to determine what the pharmakeia-class drugs are, and enforce that in the churches by teaching and discipline. ....
As a lawfully appointed elder pastoring a church I have made this determination in accordance with the word of God. I have not made it with bias or in ignorance, but by prayer and spiritual discernment.
But even governments have in their intelligence sectors departments who seek to develop psychics and their abilities for the purpose of warfare; the U.S. and Russia have been noted for this; it’s been written of and detailed a number of times.
If any NAPARC denomination – any church I was a member in – would take a stand permitting as licit – given the civil legality of – marijuana or other psychedelics, let me state very clearly that would be a deal-breaker. I would renounce my membership and leave that church as surely as if it had called immoral sexuality acceptable.
1. With regard to your question concerning alternative means of practicing sorcery, I think what I wrote in the OP covers this:
Very often we find, in both the OT and the New, [the] use of synecdoche (stating a part for the whole) when the word pharmakeia and its cognates are used, the use of drugs being the essential and common component in almost all of the “magic arts”.
As an example, I quote from the old ISBE,
“The word translated in the AV ‘witchcraft’ in Gal 5:20 (pharmakeia) is the ordinary Greek one for ‘sorcery,’ and is so rendered in the RV, though it means literally the act of administering drugs and then of magical potions. It naturally comes then to stand for the magician’s art, as in the present passage and also in . . . the LXX of Isa 47:9 . . . translated ‘sorceries’.” [emphasis added –SMR] (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, James Orr, Ed., Vol. 5, p. 3097.)
So we see that pharmakeia refers to the drugs specifically and by synecdoche to the general field of magic arts, even as “Moscow” stands for the entire nation of Russia. As for “unsuccessful attempts” I would suppose the intent would be sin even though it was not realized.
The mechanism is by its nature psychopharmacological, the effect of chemicals on the brain and nervous system, which in the case of pharmakeia-class drugs is unique, and peculiar to those chemicals. They affect the nervous system and brain in their connection to the spirit or soul of the man, activating it to awareness in a manner that is the sole province of the Holy Spirit to do in holiness, and this is why the effect of these drugs is called a counterfeit of the Holy Spirit. In answer to the above noted point questioned, this action upon the nervous system and spirit necessarily brings in demonic influence. Awareness in such a state is unlawful if brought about by other than the Lord. It may not always bring about consciousness of being in a spiritual realm or of spirits, but even the lower-grade heightened consciousness of intense sexual, culinary, aesthetic, or mental pleasure is still due to the energized spirit of the man functioning as an enhancer of sensual pleasure, and is a low-level experience of pharmakeia activity. It is demonic. It is a demonically-enhanced love of the world, through the eyes, the flesh, and the pride of life (1 John 2:15, 16). It snares many souls, and one may see why its prohibition will be fought against vehemently.
He probably doesn't want to find her tilting at windmills, fearful and superstitious, ascribing spiritul powers to inanimate objects (which is idolatry), and not apprehending the victory He won on our behalf over spiritual forces of darkness (who may have authority over worldlings, but none over us - we have authority over them) such that her energies are spent harping on indifferent matters and conjuring up boogey-men rather than proclaiming and exhibiting His gospel to a dying world, either.The Lord doesn’t want to come back and find His bride stoned, but reflecting His majesty as she stands firm giving her testimony of Him and His Kingdom, even unto death.
The problem with your view that I “don’t have Scripture support for this: it is based on experience and testimony, and hence the need for discernment” and thus renders the interpretation I posit merely subjective at best, is that we have a life or death matter due to the sanctions against sorcerers and sorcery – eternal punishment in the lake of fire – completely unresolved, and relegated to a back burner with no prospect of being definitively dealt with.
I'd bet dollars to donuts Steve's skeptics have never done LSD.
You lost that bet, CJ. As stated in an earlier post.I'd bet dollars to donuts Steve's skeptics have never done LSD.
I am focusing on one aspect of the demonic. I know there is a vast field pertaining to this subject. I have interest in just one thing in it for this present discussion. Murder is demonic (of the devil), as is adultery, and lying. Sorcery is listed with them; can it be we do not know what it is, or entails?
One who attains a state of awareness so as to have communion with spirits or to function in that realm with spiritual power through “incantations, strobe lights, and so forth” is also practicing sorcery, even though pharmaceuticals are not being used.
PS Kevin, that's not running to science, it's good, proper Calvinistic systematic logic.
Of witchcraft in particular, he says, "God would condemn to capital punishment all augurs, and magicians, and consulters with familiar spirits, and necromancers and followers of magic arts, as well as enchanters. And...God declares that He 'will set His face against all, that shall turn after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards,' so as to cut them off from His people; and then commands that they should be destroyed by stoning." Following this understanding of the Old Testament law, in 1545 twenty-three people were burned to death under charges of practicing witchcraft and attempting to spread the Plague over a three year period.
Ruben,
To further clarify, I would say not only does “ ‘drug administrator’ come to mean, precisely, sorcerer, and ‘drug administration’ mean sorcery”, but also one who participates in pharmakeia activity is a sorcerer and the pharmakeia activity is sorcery.
One who attains a state of awareness so as to have communion with spirits or to function in that realm with spiritual power through “incantations, strobe lights, and so forth” is also practicing sorcery, even though pharmaceuticals are not being used. I have heard of those who may do this through the agency of spirits without any longer having to use the drugs. They have become familiar with the spirits. Technically gurus who use demonic power to manifest spiritual “light” and “powers” I would term sorcerers, though the term guru (as I am using it here) is a class of demonic practitioner by itself.
The prohibition against pharmakeia forbids the magic arts absolutely, both as regards the generally essential component of drug use, as well as by synecdoche the entire enterprise.
It certainly makes far more sense to me to not use smoke in a medicinal way, though I understand that pills of various kinds can also create issues. Perhaps cannabinoid-infused olive oil is a sensible way to preserve the medically valuable elements in a usable form. But I don't think that this point is really germane to our discussion.You ask, “Are we agreed as to the lexical fact? By a natural progression pharmakos and pharmakeia now mean, simply, sorcerer and sorcery respectively, without regard to the means employed or the success experienced.” We are agreed, although if “success” is not ‘experienced” the person is not actually a sorcerer nor has committed sorcery, but is in the same class of guilt as one desiring to commit adultery (or murder) but not having done so. Also, you may have noticed in the OP’s link to a research article on medicinal marijuana, there is a genuinely medicinal use by extract of the cannabinoids, and other use. I quote from the article:Why have I studied these things? Finding myself in this realm many years ago, I determined to know what was what here. In Proverbs it says, “The righteous man wisely considereth the house of the wicked” (21:12), and, “A wise man scaleth the city of the mighty, and casteth down the strength of the confidence thereof” (21:22).“The main success of THC has been found in patients suffering from AIDS-related wasting syndrome and in some cases in which patients are suffering from intractable pain. However, nearly all of these studies involved the use of controlled doses of purified cannabinoids, bypassing the adverse effects associated with smoking marijuana. Dr. Robert L. DuPont, Georgetown University School of Medicine, says that most opponents of the medical use of smoked marijuana are not hostile to the medical use of THC, 'while most supporters of smoked marijuana are hostile to the use of purified chemicals from marijuana, insisting that only smoked marijuana leaves be used as "medicine," revealing clearly that their motivation is not scientific medicine but the back door legalization of marijuana'.” –The Medical “Benefits” of Smoking Marijuana (Cannabis): a Review of the Current Scientific Literature
The problem with your view that I “don’t have Scripture support for this: it is based on experience and testimony, and hence the need for discernment” and thus renders the interpretation I posit merely subjective at best, is that we have a life or death matter due to the sanctions against sorcerers and sorcery – eternal punishment in the lake of fire – completely unresolved, and relegated to a back burner with no prospect of being definitively dealt with. When you have a large number of people put at such risk of running afoul these sanctions and you equivocate as to what the acts are they punish, well, you have an iffy church unable to give people the directions to keep them out of Hell. Is that acceptable? What would you say to those who come to you for counsel? “Ruben, I have access to some great and potent marijuana, and I’m a Christian living in Amsterdam where it’s perfectly legal, and I’ve been reading your posts and I get the view that if partake of this weed in moderation and with regard to safety (i.e., not driving or operating machinery) I’m not in violation of the Bible. Is that right?” What can you say by way of counsel to this person? That you’re not sure? Or yes it’s okay?
I am not picking on you personally, Ruben, as I know you are seeking to understand, but rhetorically addressing the church in your person.
The sin of sorcery is on a par with murder, adultery, and lying. Can we not come up with a definition of what it is other than vague equivocations?
What I suggested was that – in item 3. A. in my previous post above – godly and mature men who have had experience with these things in their earlier years present a testimony to the church so she is able to make an assessment from their spiritual understanding of their past experience.In the absence of clarity as to what the pharmakeia-class drugs are, and to seek to ascertain if they even exist, what shall you do? Am I but talking to the wind when I keep saying that the horror of the sanctions against this (to some) uncertain sin threaten a great many people who have no guidance in the matter? Is it of importance to you to determine precisely what is entailed in this deadly sin? It is to me!Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? (1 Cor 6:2-5)
I am focusing on one aspect of the demonic. I know there is a vast field pertaining to this subject. I have interest in just one thing in it for this present discussion. Murder is demonic (of the devil), as is adultery, and lying. Sorcery is listed with them; can it be we do not know what it is, or entails? We put it on the back burner at our peril. Do you have better suggestions than mine for figuring out what this Biblically prohibited activity is? I’d be interested to hear them. But we do have to figure it out. But I am repeating myself.
Do I think the Holy Spirit gives a “heightened consciousness”? Great question. It is certainly not heightened in the sense that pharmakeia-class drugs heighten it. With them there is a quickening not only of the spirit of man, but of his sensual faculties as well. They bring an awareness of bodily and soulish functions at a profound level, and outwardly of other spiritual beings, whether humans in their proximity or other sentient beings, even those invisibility-cloaked. The spirits may easily infuse spiritual phenomena into the beings tripping on the pharmakeia drugs, as their consciousness is open and receptive to such input. Generally people not under the influence of such drugs are not open and receptive to such; their consciousness is not aware or sensitized to such.
As I sit here writing, no doubt there are demonic beings around (and angels too, most likely), but I have no awareness in this realm except the Holy Spirit give it, and He hardly ever gives such awareness, for He is not into promoting clairvoyance in His people. Nor am I interested in being aware of angels or demons. I am interested in being aware of my physical surroundings, the psychological, emotional and physical life of those humans and animals in my environs, and last but not least, the presence of my God. The awareness the Holy Spirit gives is not “heightened” to perceive spirits – unless it be to give me spiritual discernment of something needful – or to amplify my sensory capacities. The awareness He gives is of my state of being, the state of those people around me, and of the presence of my Savior, who is bodily in the heavens but by His Spirit omnipresent, and particularly in intimate communion with me, unworthy though I am for such grace and love – but that’s what grace is, undeserved favor.
So, no, the Holy Spirit does not “heighten” consciousness in the sense used of the other substances. Consciousness of Him – Jesus, and the Father in Him – is the heart of life itself. Our Lord grants us to be aware of those things that are needful to us here; He is sparing so that we learn to live by faith, not by sensation. Our awareness of Him is a profound assurance in the depths of our being that His word is true, and all His promises are true. When His word says, “I am with you always, even unto the end of the age . . . I will never leave you nor forsake you . . . nothing can separate you from the love of God which is in Me”, this living word is the reality I live in. This is the heightened consciousness the Spirit of Christ gives.
Ruben, I'll most likely be away for a few days, for sermon prep. I thank you for the discussion – it is most helpful to me for distilling my thoughts.
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The Lord doesn’t want to come back and find His bride stoned, but reflecting His majesty as she stands firm giving her testimony of Him and His Kingdom, even unto death.