World history "Cyclical / Circular"?

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D. Paul

D. Paul

Puritan Board Sophomore
A SS class I attend is studying the book of Daniel. The teacher has made the statement that history and prophecy are cyclical/circular as opposed to linear, i.e. from God's viewpoint outside time, we find repeated patterns of prophecies.

I cannot quite grasp the concept, nor do I think I should. :think:
Is there a "biblical" answer?
 
Well, the burden of proof is upon him to show those 'patterns of prophecies,' which I think he is going to have a hard time in light of a redemptive historical reading of Scripture, again which I think is the "biblical" answer.

How can everything be cyclical or circular if everything pointed to a single aspect - Christ?
 
I agree. This teacher has studied and taught for over thirty years so I'm guessing he thinks he does have evidence, but you're right, he'd have to demonstrate it.
 
I vaguely remember in my old christian history class that most cyclical views of history are pessimistic in nature that stems from a philosophical emphasis on the failure of man and the purposeless-ness of it all.

They have a philosophical bias-ness when reading history, but so do we actually. Talking about general history not bible history.

Perhaps others may know more especially any historian who propounded this view.
 
D. Paul said:
I agree. This teacher has studied and taught for over thirty years so I'm guessing he thinks he does have evidence, but you're right, he'd have to demonstrate it.
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That's a rather unwarranted guess! And even then there are different types of evidence. Your teacher's comment reminds me of Anatoly Fomenko, a very successful Russian mathematician who branched out into history. He postulates an Eurasian empire which fell apart in the 1400’s with each fragment taking on the history of that empire as its own national history and re-interpreting it as taking place in different times with different people and places. So, for example, English history from 500 to 1000 is the same as Byzantine history from 200 to 700, just reinterpreted. The Trojan wars were the same as the Crusades; Jesus was a Russian born in 1152, and was crucified in Istanbul. All of this is based on comprehensive statistical evidence.

On the other hand, based on the little you've said, your teacher could simply be affirming that "there is nothing new under the sun", that the essence of all these processes and events have been seen before and after. An unbelieving corollary of that might be that if you wait long enough you will certainly find a situation that seems to fit with any prophecy.
 
The Christian view is that history is not meaningless or going round in meaningless circles but that it is linear and every event has meaning and purpose, even though for most of these events we can't see the meaning and purpose.

B.C. all history, ultimately was leading to Christ's First Advent.

A.D. all history is leading to Chist's ultimate triumph.

This is the case whether one is postmil, amil or premil. Although with postmil, the ultimate meaning of history in glorifying God through the defeat of the forces of evil is clearly seen in the triumph of Christ's Kingdom in history.

With amil and premil, Christ's Kingdom is frustrated in history, and yet the amil or premil would obviously say that God is glorified in that way, rather than in the more obvious way of postmil. As a postmil I wouldn't say that that is theoretically impossible, it just seems unlikely in the light of various Scriptures, and in the light of the progress the Gospel has made in a mere 2,000 years.

All history glorifies God - being His providence. If we don't see alot of it now we will in Heaven, when we will have the best history lesson ever.

Re circles in history. Yes history repeats itself in patterns, sometimes because men do not learn from history.

The quip of Hegel that "The lesson of history is that Man does not learn from history" is too cynical, especially with regard to redeemed Man. Even unsaved men sometimes learn from the past.

The unbelieving historian doesn't have/rejects special revelation with which to look at history and to understand that history has a telos (goal) in the Eschaton (Last Day), and so interprets the repeated patterns and cycles of history as evidence of its essential or total meaninglessness. Of course, knowing God as he does, the unbelieving historian doesn't do this consistently, otherwise he'd give up on history completely.
 
dr_parsley said:
On the other hand, based on the little you've said, your teacher could simply be affirming that "there is nothing new under the sun", that the essence of all these processes and events have been seen before and after. An unbelieving corollary of that might be that if you wait long enough you will certainly find a situation that seems to fit with any prophecy.
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Nope. I would have given him the same benefit of the doubt until he started drawing it on the board. History/prophesy is cyclical/circular.

-----Added 9/19/2009 at 11:55:48 EST-----

Richard Tallach said:
Re circles in history. Yes history repeats itself in patterns, sometimes because men do not learn from history.
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Agreed. That is about the only thing. Sin remains sin and is repeated generation to generation with the same effects.
 
Well it depends what he means.

I suppose history could be said to be cyclical in a certain sense and yet also going in one direction: spiral-shaped!

In our personal histories certain things constantly repeat themselves in a cyclical fashion -days, weeks, seasons, years, going to work, coming home from work, summer holidays, etc, etc, etc - yet these things aren't ever an exact repetition of what went before, and our lives are constantly going in one direction; towards the grave, whether that be a happy or sad end.
 
History is going someplace. It is not going round and round. History will end as God has foreordained and when He has foreordained. Therefore history is headed that way - in a straight line.
 
Richard Tallach said:
Well it depends what he means.

I suppose history could be said to be cyclical in a certain sense and yet also going in one direction: spiral-shaped!

In our personal histories certain things constantly repeat themselves in a cyclical fashion -days, weeks, seasons, years, going to work, coming home from work, summer holidays, etc, etc, etc - yet these things aren't ever an exact repetition of what went before, and our lives are constantly going in one direction; towards the grave, whether that be a happy or sad end.
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The teacher used those very examples of seasons, weeks etc. But those of nature by which we mark time are not the same as the claimed "prophetic cycles", which as yet I really don't know quite what he could mean.
 
As Curt partly points out the cycles are more apparent than real, because history never repeats itself exactly. There are regular patterns even in the creation. God maybe recognises that finite creatures need these.

Re prophecy, you have the repeated rise and fall of great empires and ideas which are more often than not hostile to God's people.

Egypt
Assyria
Babylonia
Medo-Persia
Greece
Rome
The Great Nations and Empires since Rome (Ended c. AD 476 in the West and c. AD 1453 in the East) especially of "Western Christendom" (The Ten Toes). These have not been wholly co-operative with Christ's Kingdom and more often than not hostile to its true interests. This is still the case today.

But they cannot build a world Empire of the strength and longevity of Rome (partially of iron; partially of clay) because the influence of Christianity will not allow it (Daniel 2).

The message of Daniel is that ultimately Christ's Kingdom is going to swallow them all up/or break them down and transform the world by triumphing over them all and incorporating all nations. The millennium debate is from one perspective over how Christ is doing/going to do that.

There is real direction and apparent cycles and patterns in history.
 
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dr_parsley said:
D. Paul said:
I agree. This teacher has studied and taught for over thirty years so I'm guessing he thinks he does have evidence, but you're right, he'd have to demonstrate it.
Click to expand...

That's a rather unwarranted guess! And even then there are different types of evidence. Your teacher's comment reminds me of Anatoly Fomenko, a very successful Russian mathematician who branched out into history. He postulates an Eurasian empire which fell apart in the 1400’s with each fragment taking on the history of that empire as its own national history and re-interpreting it as taking place in different times with different people and places. So, for example, English history from 500 to 1000 is the same as Byzantine history from 200 to 700, just reinterpreted. The Trojan wars were the same as the Crusades; Jesus was a Russian born in 1152, and was crucified in Istanbul. All of this is based on comprehensive statistical evidence.

On the other hand, based on the little you've said, your teacher could simply be affirming that "there is nothing new under the sun", that the essence of all these processes and events have been seen before and after. An unbelieving corollary of that might be that if you wait long enough you will certainly find a situation that seems to fit with any prophecy.
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Oswald Spengler (1880-1936), in his Decline of the West (1918), taught a cyclical view of history. On the other hand, Arnold J. Toynbee (1889-1975) taught that history is not cyclical, but that the length of a civilization's life depended on how well its leaders were able to meet the various challenges that arise. He also believed, contrary to some historians, that religion had a valuable, and positive, part to play in the lives of civilizations. Toynbee lays all this out in his A Study of History, published in 12 volumes (1934-1961), where he studies the lives of 26 different civilizations.
 
You teacher, whether he knows it or not, is embracing paganism. History is not cyclical it is determinate; and it is mastered by God Almighty, its creator.
 
Is your teacher a dispensationalist?

I've heard dispensationalists claim that a single prophecy can be fulfilled multiple times. For example, they'll take a prophecy that was fulfilled BC, apply it some time AD, and then claim it will happen again shortly before the return of Christ.
 
Quote from Jonathan
I've heard dispensationalists claim that a single prophecy can be fulfilled multiple times. For example, they'll take a prophecy that was fulfilled BC, apply it some time AD, and then claim it will happen again shortly before the return of Christ.
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I don't know if this is a uniquely dispensationalist hermeneutic with prophecy.

I think I've read some Reformed scholars talking about the telescopic sense of prophecy, in which some prophecies have a partial earlier fulfilment and then a fuller fulfilment later e.g. the prophecies of the return from exile in e.g. Ezekiel were only partially and brokenly fulfilled in the Jews return, but were also pointing to a greater fulfilment in the whole world being populated with believing Jews and Gentiles under Christ.

I think Fairbairn in his Commentary on Ezekiel and other Reformed expositors take this approach with some prophecies.

They say, in analogy, it as if the prophet was viewing 2 or 3 lighted candles in a row, and they blended together in his vision, we only distinguish them as the prophecy is fulfilled in stages; or as if the prophet was viewing a ridge of 2 or 3 mountains in a row, and gave a description of them all without perfectly distinguishing them.

Then there is also the related but different point that even if it is believed and insisted that a prophecy was fulfilled in a specific and unique event, because of the repeated patterns/cycles within linear history, that prophecy and its unique fulfilment still have lessons for us.
 
"God does not live in literal time, which moves from point A to point B. His timeline is circular. He stands above and sees the beginning from the end and the end from the beginning."

This is a direct quote from the class. The teacher also made reference in an earlier class that this was the view for prophecy as well.

In trying to be fair and give him every benefit of the doubt, regarding prophecy this has to create some serious problems. I am going to be engaging in email dialog with him, by his permission, so maybe I can get clarification.
 
Yes.

But God's perspective of being outside of time is not that of His creatures, including angels and men, and also Christ, as to His humanity.

God condescends to us in His Word by using anthropomorphisms and anthropopathisms - e.g. God sees, God repents.

Is it not also true that in His verbal revelation, He would - at least largely - talk about time in a way that we would understand (and which is even more essentially and objectively true from God's perspective, because He being outside of time can see it like this, whereas we have to imagine it like this) as having a beginning, an end and a middle?

E.g. A.............................................................................>B

Eden...............................................................................>Second Advent.
 
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