too many pastors, not enough pulpits
- Thread starter jjraby
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Lots of men are unqualified, although they may think they are. That's a % of your applicants.
Some men are hoping they are suited to one pulpit or another, and God must make that plain.
Some men are not happy where they are, and they see an opening, and think the grass is greener on the other side.
How many men went to seminary, without any support in the idea from any of the church? Now they are graduates, and are trying to find a job. Somehow the church has to figure out which of the many resumes they receive they should pursue.
Actually, it is easy for a church to eliminate a good 50% of their applicants, or more. It's getting down to the last three men or so thats hardest.
I waited four years after seminary for my first call. God was getting me ready, and the church I went to serve. I kept waiting, applying, praying, growing. If God means you to be in his service, no power of flesh or spirit will keep it from happening.
Trust the Lord.
Some men are hoping they are suited to one pulpit or another, and God must make that plain.
Some men are not happy where they are, and they see an opening, and think the grass is greener on the other side.
How many men went to seminary, without any support in the idea from any of the church? Now they are graduates, and are trying to find a job. Somehow the church has to figure out which of the many resumes they receive they should pursue.
Actually, it is easy for a church to eliminate a good 50% of their applicants, or more. It's getting down to the last three men or so thats hardest.
I waited four years after seminary for my first call. God was getting me ready, and the church I went to serve. I kept waiting, applying, praying, growing. If God means you to be in his service, no power of flesh or spirit will keep it from happening.
Trust the Lord.
LawrenceU
Puritan Board Doctor
That might be the case in the evanjellyfish world, but I've not heard about it from conservative / reformed circles. It may be the case within some denominations. I know that just a few months ago there was a thread that stated just the opposite in the RPCNA. I think that is the right group. I know that among Reformed Baptist churches there can be a time trying to find qualified ministers. That may hearken more to the issue than one might think if the statistic you cite is accurate. I have met quite a few men, both Baptist and Presbyterian, who have been through the schooling, but really don't need to be in leadership in a church. Education is not all that is required of a minister.
O'GodHowGreatThouArt
Puritan Board Sophomore
"There's a pulpit on every street corner." - Paul Washer
Montanablue
Puritan Board Doctor
When I began attending my church, we did not have a pastor - they were just beginning the search. We had a huge number of applicants, but about 3/4 were in no way qualified (and our church, because of its location, did not have extremely high standards, we knew a lot of ppl wouldn't want to move here).
toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
You know, if this were the case in the conservative Reformed churches, we'd probably have a Reformed church nearby. We don't though. If there are OPC/PCA/URC men out there that would like NE Iowa, I'm happy to tell them in what town they should plant a church! 
jjraby
Puritan Board Freshman
Your comment about waiting four years is the reason for my question. I am currently thinking about pursuing my teaching certificate while in Seminary. It will prolong my seminary stay but i have heard from several people that they did not get a call for a while after seminary.
Kevin
Puritan Board Doctor
The average length of a vacancy in Eastern Canada presbytery is 5 years. I have read recently that in the PCA we have 3 men with out a call for each vacancy.
A big part of the problem is that many men that think that they are called are unwilling to move. Or their wife is unwilling to move.
A big part of the problem is that many men that think that they are called are unwilling to move. Or their wife is unwilling to move.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
That worries me about my own denom. We've had over 100 applicants to our search commitee. I hope that is not an indication the PCA has finally slipped fully into the evanjellyfish pond!
One way to look at this is quite flattering!
---------- Post added at 07:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:10 PM ----------
Part of the I Timothy 3 examination is whether the officer's wife, if married, consents to his serving. Here, every elder and deacon is asked that and if she is not in agreement, he may not serve.
This is one of many, many factors God uses and we try to discern who God is calling and qualifying for office at that time. An exemplary, not perfect, but exemplary life is required- even if the candidate is qualified in other ways.
SemperEruditio
Puritan Board Junior
As with any other employment if you are willing to move, not care where you end up, and not care about the salary then you will have no problem getting a job. I don't think that there are a shortage of pulpits but a shortage of a match between the expectations of the committees vs the applicants.
MarieP
Puritan Board Senior
Wouldn't the model of the plurality and parity of elders help alleviate this situation? There are so many churches where one pastor does all the work. They need the help!
This also brings up the issue of whether or not a call to ministry necessarily implies full-time, paid ministry.
This also brings up the issue of whether or not a call to ministry necessarily implies full-time, paid ministry.
Grimmson
Puritan Board Sophomore
I couldn’t agree with you more, and the need of many more men to assist the pastor and keep him theologically accountable is great. I always have the concern that the one pastor per church model creates little popes in each church. And the need to care for God’s people is great, particularly when the main teaching pastor has his own family to take care as he is sheparding. The pastor can easily be overwhelmed in his responsibilities in visitation, counseling, and preparing his sermon; while also be needed to care for his family, and in some of our circles expected to be enlarging and home-schooled, at home at the same time.
Which is why we dont have to many, if any we do not have enough in my opinion. We are not using what we have now at the pulpit effectively and efficiently.
---------- Post added at 05:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:08 PM ----------
Part of that reason of need is because we place our seminary students in debt and the fact we unofficially require that they be married; instead of going for the single pastor, who is willing to sacrificially give to the church and has more free time to provide service to the church, compared to a married man.
SemperEruditio
Puritan Board Junior
The pay is tricky because if a man wants to keep his options open then he needs to attend an accredited seminary. With the price of education, especially graduate education, this means most of these men take out loans to pay for it. Add to that the loans for undergrad or whatever and presto you have men who have to make more than most churches can afford to pay. Couple that with many churches not willing to pay the new graduate equivalent to a salary commensurate with his education (which actually means his debts) and we have empty pulpits.
Then there are those men who are willing to move and do whatever to answer God's call and yet no one seems to want them. It might be a personality thing but I say, like Bruce that if God has called then nothing and no one will stop it.
It really is so crazy how we in American Christianity have it set up. We've institutionalized the church in that we want men from the "big schools" because we know they will be Reformed enough and free from heresy but yet are not willing to pay the price tag. Yet you have men who are Reformed but lack the pedigree and get put through the ringer and then never chosen. The men I know in this situation know the sovereignty of God waaaaaay better than I do.
BTW...there is a reason why there is glut of chaplains in the military...just sayin...
Then there are those men who are willing to move and do whatever to answer God's call and yet no one seems to want them. It might be a personality thing but I say, like Bruce that if God has called then nothing and no one will stop it.
It really is so crazy how we in American Christianity have it set up. We've institutionalized the church in that we want men from the "big schools" because we know they will be Reformed enough and free from heresy but yet are not willing to pay the price tag. Yet you have men who are Reformed but lack the pedigree and get put through the ringer and then never chosen. The men I know in this situation know the sovereignty of God waaaaaay better than I do.
BTW...there is a reason why there is glut of chaplains in the military...just sayin...
MarieP
Puritan Board Senior
The confession indicates that 'ordinarily' it is the church (so called and gathered) which approves and calls preachers. Why would the church approve and call preachers and then not give them an opportunity to preach? As was mentioned above, there are plenty of street corners for these approved and called preachers.
However, the confession does not say that all those who are approved and called for preaching are approved and called to receive a full time salary!
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
My wife and I are willing to move just about anywhere. Be it in the middle of nowhere or the middle of somewhere. Even working 1/2 time if need be. Yellowknife to Bermuda. Tijuana to Charlottetown. (though would prefer somewhere where the summers are mild and the winters are vigorous 
).
Just my anecdotal experience over the last 18 months but I have applied to over 50 pulpits in various NAPARC denominations, 3 or 4 CCCC churches, and 4 or 5 EPC churches. All but 3 of the NAPARC pulpit committees that turned down my application (of those who responded to my follow up e-mails/letters) told me the primary reason they were not considering me was that they had received so many applications (average was more than 50) from men who already were Ordained and had pastoral experience in NAPARC churches that they were not going to even look at first-time call men.
For what that is worth.
). Just my anecdotal experience over the last 18 months but I have applied to over 50 pulpits in various NAPARC denominations, 3 or 4 CCCC churches, and 4 or 5 EPC churches. All but 3 of the NAPARC pulpit committees that turned down my application (of those who responded to my follow up e-mails/letters) told me the primary reason they were not considering me was that they had received so many applications (average was more than 50) from men who already were Ordained and had pastoral experience in NAPARC churches that they were not going to even look at first-time call men.
For what that is worth.
Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I would couple this with wrong priorities. If we agree that
, it would seem to me a priority should be given to the teaching elder when it comes to finances. Unfortunately this is not always the case. For example, there is a church in my denomination that is struggling to keep its doors open. They have not had a pastor for a few years due to some conflicts going on there, but also because they cannot pay more than 12 grand a year. It would be one thing if this was all they can afford, but when you consider the fact that the church financially supports several missionary families, I feel the 12 grand is a sad state.
I have also seen other situations where the pastor is paid minimally and instead of increasing his pay when the church grows and can afford it, the church spends the money on some program or on the new hip music minister (which means the next round of money goes to paying the band). Maybe I missed it, but I am not seeing in any of our literature where it states that a music minister (just using the term for clarity sake. I know some disagree with its use and office) somehow dispenses the graces of God. In fact, in many cases the music minister is not ordained and thus is incapable of administering the sacraments. So the financial priority of giving to someone who cannot even give the sacraments which we believe is one of the marks of a true church, seems insane to me. I am not against paying a music minister or people who can play instruments, I just think priority should be given to the pastor. Once a legitimate full-time pay can be achieved, then start paying for other things.
My solution to the situation is this.
1. Churches should create larger scholarship funds for seminary students (especially for those denominations that would prefer someone to attend a school that does not allow students to take federal loans. The entire education has to come out of pocket. That is tough).
2. Financial priority should be given to the Teaching elder.
This is just my early morning thinking going on.
Oh also, if you do not want to pay a full-time salary, you cannot expect a full-time level of work. I think it is wrong and sinful. I grew up watching churches run pastors into the ground by expecting them to work a full-time job, spend 40+ hrs a week on church stuff, and somehow maintain a perfect family life. In the end something gets dropped and it usually is the family.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Wow Bolivar. Excellent stuff. 
Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Wow Bolivar. Excellent stuff.
Everyone gets lucky once in a while.
White Knight
Puritan Board Freshman
I've heard this statistic before and I have an odd question. This is going to sound like a broad stroke and I don't mean to offend anyone. But if God calls a man to be a minister, wouldn't God also provide the church for him to minister to?
For some reason, I can't help but look at this statistic and say that the shepards that don't have a flock were mistaken. I need someone to edify me. Why would God call someone without given him someone to shepard? This seems to me to be contradictory, which God isn't. Needless to say, since no one has said something similar, I'm in the wrong. Help needed.
For some reason, I can't help but look at this statistic and say that the shepards that don't have a flock were mistaken. I need someone to edify me. Why would God call someone without given him someone to shepard? This seems to me to be contradictory, which God isn't. Needless to say, since no one has said something similar, I'm in the wrong. Help needed.
MarieP
Puritan Board Senior
Dear brother, I am with you on this one, as are (I believe) KMK and Grimmson. And I don't think it's coincidence that we all happen to be Baptists- our Presbyterian brethren on the board hold to a different view than we do- we say that highest ecclesiastical authority under Christ is the leadership of each local church and that it is the local church that is used by the Holy Spirit to separate out men for the ministry.. Our Presbyterian brethren would disagree.
So that's where some of my consternation at this comes from. I don't want to create a debate on the issue and hijack the thread, but I can't help but think this is an issue.
Grillsy
Puritan Board Junior
Life is never that simple. Simply because a person is without a call for some time (even years) does not necessarily mean that God has not called him. God works things out in His own time. We cannot look into the future and we cannot know His mind.
It could be a case that God is further preparing the man that he is called.
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White Knight
Puritan Board Freshman
If that is the case, then would someone mind given me a concise statement that would increase my knowledge? Either way, I'm not smart enough to debate, so it would prove fruitless, I'm afraid.
---------- Post added at 01:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:26 PM ----------
Ok, I've found my problem. If a church hasn't called you to preach, how can you say you were called to preach?
Didn't mean to lessen your statement. Very true words.
Ok, I've reread the OP twice. I'm sorry. I hijacked the thread. I bow out.
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Marrow Man
Drunk with Powder
Marie, I would add one caveat to your last post: in Presbyterianism the local congregation still calls the pastor. Presbyteries still have oversight over pastors (e.g., I am a member of my presbytery, but not my local congregation, although I believe some presbyterian bodies handle this differently) and examine them to make sure they are qualified, etc. But as far as calling pastors, the method is very much like that in congregational churches, only with the added presbytery layer.
greenbaggins
Puritan Board Doctor
It is helpful to remember here that there are really two parts to a call, the internal and the external. Lots of people go wrong in over-emphasizing one over the other. The Lord places a desire in the heart of a man to want to be a pastor. This internal call, however, needs to be confirmed by the external call, which is the church. That external call looks different among the different stages of the process. For someone just starting out, for instance, it looks like a church confirming that a man has the necessary gifts to be a pastor. For a man in seminary, it looks like being under care of a Presbytery (in the Presbyterian system, obviously!). For the man who has received an official call from a church, it looks like a Presbytery examining and confirming that he has the necessary tools to carry out the duties of the pastorate. The internal call also undergoes development, but it does not change as drastically. The desire remains there, although it may be augmented over time, as the man starts finding out all the things that are required for being a pastor. My desire, for instance, started with the simple idea of helping people understand their Bibles better. In seminary, though, that idea expanded to include the means of grace as the way of ministering to people no matter what their condition.
It is very dangerous to ignore either the external or the internal call when it comes to being a pastor. I remember my pastor being frustrated with a Reformed seminary to which he applied. They kept on asking him about his call. He said that he was an ordained minister in the PCA, and that the Presbytery had his call. They said, "but what about your call?" As if the external call was not part of the call at all. Without the external call, many young men can go at this with delusions of grandeur, not having anything close to the necessary gifts. It would be well for the church to take this aspect of its calling much more seriously: to affirm or gently to deny the internal callings of young men.
However, without the internal call, a man will very quickly burn out, as there is no fire within him to preach no matter what the cost to himself. Without the internal call, any opposition will quickly silence him into saying what people want to hear. Both are needed.
It is very dangerous to ignore either the external or the internal call when it comes to being a pastor. I remember my pastor being frustrated with a Reformed seminary to which he applied. They kept on asking him about his call. He said that he was an ordained minister in the PCA, and that the Presbytery had his call. They said, "but what about your call?" As if the external call was not part of the call at all. Without the external call, many young men can go at this with delusions of grandeur, not having anything close to the necessary gifts. It would be well for the church to take this aspect of its calling much more seriously: to affirm or gently to deny the internal callings of young men.
However, without the internal call, a man will very quickly burn out, as there is no fire within him to preach no matter what the cost to himself. Without the internal call, any opposition will quickly silence him into saying what people want to hear. Both are needed.
DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
And, as for pastors without pulpits, there are some who have served faithfully and (evidently) effectively, but who experience involuntary termination. They would, by definition, be "without pulpits" but not in the same category as one who graduates from seminary and cannot find anyone interested in calling him. There are many reasons why congregations ditch their pastors, few of which deal with blatant moral failure.
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