The "importance" of remembering the Jewishness of our faith...

[SolaScriptura]

I'm having a discussion with a friend who attends Denver Seminary. He has to take an oral examination before a panel of professors in order to graduate. One of the professors is very committed to dispensationalism and has given my friend a prep sheet of potential questions. One of which is to talk about the value of the Jewish beliefs, practices, and traditions for the Christian faith.

My friend mentioned that while in some matters he doesn't think there is much significance, in some things he finds great value, such as in observing the Passover Seder.

Here was my reply:

(Friend), I don't share your affinity for the Passover Seder. Why? Well...

While it is important to remember our Old Covenant connections - because that is now our family history - I think we need to be careful with talking about the "Jewishness" of our faith. The reason is that many "Jewish" beliefs and practices more reflect rabbinical teaching than the Torah. In fact, by the time of Christ Judaism was way more dependent upon the rabbis than upon the Scriptures. That carries through to this day, when - I just spoke with an orthodox rabbi 2 weeks ago - the Scriptures without the rabbinical interpretations are "all but meaningless." Judaism is even less dependent upon the Scriptures than is Roman Catholicism.

The Seder, while essentially based upon the Torah, nonetheless reflects many extrabiblical practices and notions.

But even if we want to try to ignore all that and just wrap ourselves in the warm fuzzy notion that it "points to a future Messiah," I philosophically and fundamentally have a problem with Christians - who know that the Messiah has indeed come - participating in an act of worship which has as its central point the idea that He has NOT come and that atonement must still be made.

Any comments?

 

[Knoxienne]

I'm having a discussion with a friend who attends Denver Seminary. He has to take an oral examination before a panel of professors in order to graduate. One of the professors is very committed to dispensationalism and has given my friend a prep sheet of potential questions. One of which is to talk about the value of the Jewish beliefs, practices, and traditions for the Christian faith.

My friend mentioned that while in some matters he doesn't think there is much significance, in some things he finds great value, such as in observing the Passover Seder.

Here was my reply:

(Friend), I don't share your affinity for the Passover Seder. Why? Well...

While it is important to remember our Old Covenant connections - because that is now our family history - I think we need to be careful with talking about the "Jewishness" of our faith. The reason is that many "Jewish" beliefs and practices more reflect rabbinical teaching than the Torah. In fact, by the time of Christ Judaism was way more dependent upon the rabbis than upon the Scriptures. That carries through to this day, when - I just spoke with an orthodox rabbi 2 weeks ago - the Scriptures without the rabbinical interpretations are "all but meaningless." Judaism is even less dependent upon the Scriptures than is Roman Catholicism.

The Seder, while essentially based upon the Torah, nonetheless reflects many extrabiblical practices and notions.

But even if we want to try to ignore all that and just wrap ourselves in the warm fuzzy notion that it "points to a future Messiah," I philosophically and fundamentally have a problem with Christians - who know that the Messiah has indeed come - participating in an act of worship which has as its central point the idea that He has NOT come and that atonement must still be made.

Any comments?

Your answer was a good one. Christianity and Judaism are not compatible at all. Judaism's standard is the Mishnah, Talmud and Gemara, not the OT.

 

[LawrenceU]

Judaism, as practiced today, is not Judaism. It is un-biblical. There is no temple, no sacrificial system, nothing of the God given system remains.

 

[Scott Shahan]

I'm having a discussion with a friend who attends Denver Seminary. He has to take an oral examination before a panel of professors in order to graduate. One of the professors is very committed to dispensationalism and has given my friend a prep sheet of potential questions. One of which is to talk about the value of the Jewish beliefs, practices, and traditions for the Christian faith.

My friend mentioned that while in some matters he doesn't think there is much significance, in some things he finds great value, such as in observing the Passover Seder.

Here was my reply:

(Friend), I don't share your affinity for the Passover Seder. Why? Well...

While it is important to remember our Old Covenant connections - because that is now our family history - I think we need to be careful with talking about the "Jewishness" of our faith. The reason is that many "Jewish" beliefs and practices more reflect rabbinical teaching than the Torah. In fact, by the time of Christ Judaism was way more dependent upon the rabbis than upon the Scriptures. That carries through to this day, when - I just spoke with an orthodox rabbi 2 weeks ago - the Scriptures without the rabbinical interpretations are "all but meaningless." Judaism is even less dependent upon the Scriptures than is Roman Catholicism.

The Seder, while essentially based upon the Torah, nonetheless reflects many extrabiblical practices and notions.

But even if we want to try to ignore all that and just wrap ourselves in the warm fuzzy notion that it "points to a future Messiah," I philosophically and fundamentally have a problem with Christians - who know that the Messiah has indeed come - participating in an act of worship which has as its central point the idea that He has NOT come and that atonement must still be made.

Any comments?

I agree, with your response. That "Judasim is even less dependent upon the Scriptures than Roman Catholicism", but then again within Judaism there are many sects. Some are more conservative then others. I presently do attend a Torah study with quite a few Jews that really know their OT/Hebrew. I am learning from them, so I do think there is some value in it. In my Hebrew class I and another RCC are the only Christians that is there, everyone else is Jewish. They invited me to "Temple" on friday night and so I went... and what I thought was interesting about the service was that there was NO sermon...... they have a "worship book with hymns and prayers that they follow, but no getting into the OT text..

 

[Archlute]

I'm having a discussion with a friend who attends Denver Seminary. He has to take an oral examination before a panel of professors in order to graduate. One of the professors is very committed to dispensationalism and has given my friend a prep sheet of potential questions. One of which is to talk about the value of the Jewish beliefs, practices, and traditions for the Christian faith.

My friend mentioned that while in some matters he doesn't think there is much significance, in some things he finds great value, such as in observing the Passover Seder.

Here was my reply:

(Friend), I don't share your affinity for the Passover Seder. Why? Well...

While it is important to remember our Old Covenant connections - because that is now our family history - I think we need to be careful with talking about the "Jewishness" of our faith. The reason is that many "Jewish" beliefs and practices more reflect rabbinical teaching than the Torah. In fact, by the time of Christ Judaism was way more dependent upon the rabbis than upon the Scriptures. That carries through to this day, when - I just spoke with an orthodox rabbi 2 weeks ago - the Scriptures without the rabbinical interpretations are "all but meaningless." Judaism is even less dependent upon the Scriptures than is Roman Catholicism.

The Seder, while essentially based upon the Torah, nonetheless reflects many extrabiblical practices and notions.

But even if we want to try to ignore all that and just wrap ourselves in the warm fuzzy notion that it "points to a future Messiah," I philosophically and fundamentally have a problem with Christians - who know that the Messiah has indeed come - participating in an act of worship which has as its central point the idea that He has NOT come and that atonement must still be made.

Any comments?

Ben,

You did a good job in getting at some of the central issues. Those were some of the reasons that I specifically left my first seminary for one that was Reformed. The Biblical Studies department was really big on pushing Seder practice, bringing rabbinic ideas into exegesis, and emphasizing all things regarding the future temple, sacrifices, and such in a manner that really downplayed the reality of the finished work of Christ, and the "non-Jewish" nature of the Gospel. Salvation is for Jew and Gentile alike, and may be understood very well by the latter without the necessity of understanding later Jewish practice, which as pointed out above, very often has nothing to do with actual OT practice (which has been fulfilled in Christ, anyway).

I found that folk who are really heavy into that stuff tend to get offended with opposing views, often making it a dividing line of fellowship. That response should cause us to be cautious regarding the embrace of those ideas, and their effect upon the mind of those who would adhere to them. From my observations, they can very quickly become an element in danger of invoking the anathema's of Paul's Galatian epistle, although the proponents of such would never see it that way. Still, when it is said that the Gospel cannot be clearly understood apart from a "Jewish understanding" then Christians should rightly become wary of why that would be, and to where that thinking might lead.

Christianity may have roots in the Old Covenant Scriptures, but it is surely a "universal religion" in as much as it is a message of the fall, sin, savior, and our salvation that is meant for Jew and Gentile alike.

 

[Leslie]

I worshiped in a Messianic Jewish fellowship for a number of years and found it enriching. Particularly the first year, every other month or so there was a delightful new holiday that was new to me. It brought a new awareness of being "set apart" for God. We Gentiles are to be grafted into the Jewish vine, not vice versa. Hence I differ with most of the sentiments expressed above.

 

[Archlute]

I worshiped in a Messianic Jewish fellowship for a number of years and found it enriching. Particularly the first year, every other month or so there was a delightful new holiday that was new to me. It brought a new awareness of being "set apart" for God. We Gentiles are to be grafted into the Jewish vine, not vice versa. Hence I differ with most of the sentiments expressed above.

Actually, the Vine that we have been grafted into is Christ, not Jewish religion. Any understanding of Romans 11 must take into account the Scriptures' emphasis upon Christ as the New Israel of God, into whom we have been grafted, and by whom we are now also considered a part of the New Israel. We have been grafted in to Christ, not Jewish trappings.

 

[etexas]

I worshiped in a Messianic Jewish fellowship for a number of years and found it enriching. Particularly the first year, every other month or so there was a delightful new holiday that was new to me. It brought a new awareness of being "set apart" for God. We Gentiles are to be grafted into the Jewish vine, not vice versa. Hence I differ with most of the sentiments expressed above.

Actually, the Vine that we have been grafted into is Christ, not Jewish religion. Any understanding of Romans 11 must take into account the Scriptures' emphasis upon Christ as the New Israel of God, into whom we have been grafted, and by whom we are now also considered a part of the New Israel. We have been grafted in to Christ, not Jewish trappings.

What Adam said!

 

[Stomata leontôn]

I think that Dispensationalists overlook the fact that Biblical Judaism before Christ and modern "Judaism" after Christ are not the same thing at all. Because of our belief in the Christ/Messiah, we Christians are the only heirs to Abraham, not the diverse group of peoples who reject him.

 

[CharlieJ]

Ben, when I was in high school I used to attend "Bible" studies hosted by a Friends of Israel evangelist/teacher. We would look at the feasts of Jehovah, the Sabbath laws, typology, etc. I was really into it. I was actually reading through the Talmud at one point. I wanted to go to the Institute of Jewish Studies at Philadelphia Biblical University, but my parents pushed BJU.

At BJU, I frequently encountered people, including special speakers and guest faculty, who would talk about the Jewishness of our faith. They would stress that we need to read the Bible "through Jewish eyes." They were very similar to the Friends of Israel people.

Looking back, I think that the sheer sensationalism and almost gnosis is really the draw to such activities. Here comes the "Jewish expert" who will demystify the Old Testament for us (with his list of post-NT Bible denying rabbinical interpretations??). Rather than finding the interpretive key to the OT in Christ and the New Covenant, they would turn to Jewish myths. The simple truth is that Jews don't get the Bible (even OT) any better than Gentiles; in fact, the Bible and history testify to the opposite.

I have a pastor friend who is Progressive Dispensationalist b/c he approaches the Bible through a "Jewish" perspective, i.e. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. He thinks that if other people did that, they would be Dispensationalists too. I try to point out to him that William Perkins and John Gill were some of the most outstanding rabbinical scholars of their day, yet came to opposite conclusions regarding redemptive history. We Covenanters aren't missing anything.

 

[Scott Shahan]

I think that Dispensationalists overlook the fact that Biblical Judaism before Christ and modern "Judaism" after Christ are not the same thing at all. Because of our belief in the Christ/Messiah, we Christians are the only heirs to Abraham, not the diverse group of peoples who reject him.

 

[Edward]

Any comments?

Just one - if he wants to pass, he probably needs to tell the Dispensationalists what they want to hear. They are not going to be there to be evangelized.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Any comments?

Just one - if he wants to pass, he probably needs to tell the Dispensationalists what they want to hear. They are not going to be there to be evangelized.

As I see it, a part of Denver Seminary's problem is its theological diversity. This lack of consensus is evidenced on his exam panel: everything from this Dispensational, to egalitarian Arminians to even a token Calvinist.

I suggested that as long as he is orthodox and can give a biblically reasoned argument for his various positions, he'd be fine.

-----Added 3/30/2009 at 10:52:21 EST-----

I worshiped in a Messianic Jewish fellowship for a number of years and found it enriching. Particularly the first year, every other month or so there was a delightful new holiday that was new to me. It brought a new awareness of being "set apart" for God. We Gentiles are to be grafted into the Jewish vine, not vice versa. Hence I differ with most of the sentiments expressed above.

Actually, the Vine that we have been grafted into is Christ, not Jewish religion. Any understanding of Romans 11 must take into account the Scriptures' emphasis upon Christ as the New Israel of God, into whom we have been grafted, and by whom we are now also considered a part of the New Israel. We have been grafted in to Christ, not Jewish trappings.

Exactly.

-----Added 3/30/2009 at 10:52:54 EST-----

Ben, when I was in high school I used to attend "Bible" studies hosted by a Friends of Israel evangelist/teacher. We would look at the feasts of Jehovah, the Sabbath laws, typology, etc. I was really into it. I was actually reading through the Talmud at one point. I wanted to go to the Institute of Jewish Studies at Philadelphia Biblical University, but my parents pushed BJU.

At BJU, I frequently encountered people, including special speakers and guest faculty, who would talk about the Jewishness of our faith. They would stress that we need to read the Bible "through Jewish eyes." They were very similar to the Friends of Israel people.

Looking back, I think that the sheer sensationalism and almost gnosis is really the draw to such activities. Here comes the "Jewish expert" who will demystify the Old Testament for us (with his list of post-NT Bible denying rabbinical interpretations??). Rather than finding the interpretive key to the OT in Christ and the New Covenant, they would turn to Jewish myths. The simple truth is that Jews don't get the Bible (even OT) any better than Gentiles; in fact, the Bible and history testify to the opposite.

I have a pastor friend who is Progressive Dispensationalist b/c he approaches the Bible through a "Jewish" perspective, i.e. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. He thinks that if other people did that, they would be Dispensationalists too. I try to point out to him that William Perkins and John Gill were some of the most outstanding rabbinical scholars of their day, yet came to opposite conclusions regarding redemptive history. We Covenanters aren't missing anything.

You're absolutely right!

 

[lynnie]

One of which is to talk about the value of the Jewish beliefs, practices, and traditions for the Christian faith.

It is fine to talk about all the OT types and shadows and how they are fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Not extra biblical Judaism, but the OT. He can take each of the feasts and special days and explain how it was a symbol...Passover, Pentecost, Day of Atonement, etc. ( I happen to think the Feast of Trumpets will be finally fulfilled when the trumpet sounds and He returns). Actually, this is anti-dispensationalism if you explain how they all are totally fulfilled in and by the Lord. The Feast of booths....hum, I'd have to look that one up.

I would tell him to go for it. Find every single Jewish OT special feast or day and explain how Jesus/the Holy Spirit/the Church( harvest) is the perfection of it. Give the Dispensationalists a good dose of the reality instead of the shadow.

 

[DonP]

As long as by Jewishness they mean OT jewishness, for national Israel and not what it evolved into.

So yes he could approach knowing Jewishness as understanding the types and shadows set for us and the usefulness of understanding the holy days, feasts, sabbaths, jubillees, sacrifices as long as he understands them through NT eyes, not dispensational God is going to raise up Judaism again eyes.

And yes were were graft into the root, of Judaism that is the true sacrifice it all pointed to and now it would be to sacrifice Christ again to partake of sacrifice or even the passover. The reality has come and Paul taught that the Judaizers needed to stop the shadows, not explore them and have gentiles partake of them to learn their roots.

We are indeed Israel, but not the nation Israel, not ethnic Israel, but the promise of Arbraham Israel, the seed of Jacob and not Easu, the elect Jews.
We were never a part of national Israel and its practices have no place in our current worship or practice, only to study them and see the glory of God's unfolding plan to save a people from all nations, beginning with some from out of the Jews 1st and then all nations.