The Believer, The Final Judgment and Doing Bad Stuff...

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tdh86

tdh86

Puritan Board Freshman
Hello!

So...I've been asked a question about 2 Corinthians 5:10 - 'For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one can be repaid for the things that he has done in the body, whether it is good or bad.' - and I'm wondering if anyone could help shed a bit more light here for me.

Presuming that we don't have any a priori notions of multiple judgment seats :-) , I'm inclined to believe that this verse is referring to all men. So does that mean that, when every single human appears before the judgment seat of Christ, each of us will be repaid for what we have done on earth? In other words, will the redeemed will be 'paid back' for good works? Not so as to make eternal salvation a reward for good works but rather that the redeemed would be judged on the basis of the good that they have done which will be used as evidence of the work of grace done in their hearts. The 'good works' are, of course, the proof of eternal life rather than the cause of it!

That would then mean that, in the same way, the lost would be judged and repaid on the basis of evil that they have done. They are already condemned, that much is clear, so, just as for the redeemed, this would not be done to establish guilt/innocence. Their bad deeds could, again, be seen as proof of the total depravity of the unregenerate human heart and so evidence that the sentence of damnation is just.

Am I reading this the right way? Or, when Paul says 'we', does that mean he is referring exclusively to believers which would make everything I said before irrelevant? If that is the case then how are we repaid for the evil that we do? Since if we are made righteous before God then he will remember our sins no longer...

Thanks for reading...look forward to hearing what people think!

By grace,
Tim Hughes
 
The redeemed will be repaid for good works but these works are only worthy to the extent that they are done in Christ and sanctified by Him. See e.g. the Parable of the Talents. See also the Chapter in the Westminster Confession of Faith on Good Works. We don't intrinsically deserve any reward for our good works but God is pleased to reward them in Christ.

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Thanks for the reply, Richard! That's exactly the view that I would take as well.

How would you understand 2 Corinthians 5:10 specifically though? If the verse is only written to the redeemed then does that mean, in some way, we will be repaid for the bad we do too?
 
Heidelberg 63:

Do our good works merit nothing, even though it is God’s will to reward them in this life and in that which is to come? The reward comes not of merit, but of grace.
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As for evil works, I don't think "repaid" is the right word.

Matt. 12:36:

But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
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As for the immediate context of the passage you are considering (see bolded portion):

9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.
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He certainly includes believers, though their consciences are clear because a) they are doing good and b) they have received the righteousness of Christ by faith. However, those outside of Christ should be filled with terror as their consciences condemn them by the law written on their hearts as those made in God's image. Those outside of Christ will be repaid for their evil. Though the righteous may have to account for their evil deeds, they are not repaid according to them.

:2cents:
 
There seems to be 2 Judgements in the scriptures, and the one with Jesus is with Him and His own people, as we are asked to give a rendering on what we did with those talents on loan to us from God... None are lost in that judgment, but Jesus will give a verdict on if we did our good works for Him, or if we had also other reasons and motivations involved. Think Jesus will then grant to us for eternity whatever those crowns and gifts we "earned" through how faithful we were in our lives once saved.
The Great White Thrown has just lost there, as God determines how much punishment they will receive, not IF they go to hell or not...
 
The London Baptist Confession:

CHAPTER 32; OF THE LAST JUDGMENT

Paragraph 1. God has appointed a day wherein he will judge the world in righteousness, by Jesus Christ;1 to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which day, not only the apostate angels shall be judged,2 but likewise all persons that have lived upon the earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.3
1 Acts 17:31; John 5:22,27
2 1 Cor. 6:3; Jude 6
3 2 Cor. 5:10; Eccles. 12:14; Matt. 12:36; Rom. 14:10,12; Matt. 25:32-46

Paragraph 2. The end of God's appointing this day, is for the manifestation of the glory of his mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of his justice, in the eternal damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient;4 for then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fulness of joy and glory with everlasting rewards, in the presence of the Lord; but the wicked, who do not know God, and do not obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast aside into everlasting torments,5 and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.6
4 Rom. 9:22,23
5 Matt. 25:21,34; 2 Tim. 4:8
6 Matt. 25:46; Mark 9:48; 2 Thess. 1:7-10

Paragraph 3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin,7 and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity,8 so will he have the day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come,9 and may ever be prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus; come quickly.10 Amen.
7 2 Cor. 5:10,11
8 2 Thess. 1:5-7
9 Mark 13:35-37; Luke 12:35-40
10 Rev. 22:20​

The last judgment
A day
In which day... the apostate angels and all persons
The tribunal of Christ
This day
A day of judgment
The day unknown

One, general Day of Judgment. Several and varied effects.
 
Thanks for your input with this, Tim! That's pretty much where I got too as well. It's good to see I'm not completely off track. :-)
 
That's really helpful. Thanks, Bruce!

The LBC is very clear there isn't it! 'all persons that have lived upon the earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil. So it looks like everyone is taking the pronoun we to mean all humans rather than all believers...

Thanks for pointing out the singular way judgment is spoken of too. I was thinking about this as well. If the Lord wanted to tell us that there will be more than one judgment then I think it would have been made clearer!

By grace,
Tim
 
Of course this mixes in with eschatology; so depending who you are talking to; you may have two 'days'; the day of Christ where believers are rewarded, and the day of the Lord which is the time of judgment for the world and unbelievers. And those are two distinct terms used in scripture; whether they are separate events in time (and by what margin) and nature, or nature only is a matter of study.


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We also have to factor into this thatthere are 2 resurrections in the end of times, one by Jesus unto eternal life, and his judgment, and GWT for lost to appear before God...

Wither we take it as symbolic or literal, Bible states a time frame between those 2 events!
 
ALL of our sins are paid in full at the Cross, so Jesus will not repayus for bad done, but those deeds and acts will not meet the gold/silver standard in order to secure eternal rewards!
 
David,
I'm just going to keep pointing to the Confession (LBC1689) http://files.puritanboard.com/confessions/1689lbcf.htm that you claimed to agree with when you signed up. And also remind you of the voluntary agreement you made to the rules of the board: not to advocate for views that contradict the confessions--yours in particular--though you may privately hold them without prejudice.

CHAPTER 31; OF THE STATE OF MAN AFTER DEATH, AND OF THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD

Paragraph 1. The bodies of men after death return to dust, and see corruption;1 but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them.2 The souls of the righteous being then made perfect in holiness, are received into paradise, where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies;3 and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day;4 besides these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.
1 Gen. 3:19; Acts 13:36
2 Eccles. 12:7
3 Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 5:1,6,8; Phil. 1:23; Heb. 12:23
4 Jude 6, 7; 1 Peter 3:19; Luke 16:23,24

Paragraph 2. At the last day, such of the saints as are found alive, shall not sleep, but be changed;5 and all the dead shall be raised up with the selfsame bodies, and none other;6 although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls forever.7
5 1 Cor. 15:51,52; 1 Thess. 4:17
6 Job 19:26,27
7 1 Cor. 15:42,43

Paragraph 3. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonour; the bodies of the just, by his Spirit, unto honour, and be made conformable to his own glorious body.8
8 Acts 24:15; John 5:28,29; Phil. 3:21​

Once more, attend the references to
The resurrection, singular.
The last day, singular, for the resurrection.
All the dead raised, then and there.

So, if you have questions about how (English/American) Baptists and the rest of the churches of the Reformation interpreted the Bible on these matters before the 19th century and Dispensationalism, fire away.

But there's one Judgment, and one Resurrection, with several and various effects depending on the nature of the subjects and the will of God.
 
I am sorry that I brought this up, and will make sure to abide by the rules of this board, as do appreciate all of you... And am learning from all of you quite a bit!
 
Contra_Mundum said:
The London Baptist Confession:

CHAPTER 32; OF THE LAST JUDGMENT

Paragraph 1. God has appointed a day wherein he will judge the world in righteousness, by Jesus Christ;1 to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which day, not only the apostate angels shall be judged,2 but likewise all persons that have lived upon the earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.3​
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This discussion got me thinking about the status of infants and the unborn. Since these have no thoughts, words, or deeds to give an account of, on what basis will they be judged? My intent isn't to bring up the issue of infant election; the Board undertook a very thorough discussion of that problem a while ago. The question I'm asking concerns accountability for thoughts, words, and deeds rather than original sin...​
 
Original sin is the first, and perhaps the final consideration when it comes to infants that might be reprobate.

WCF, Chapter VI
Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment thereof

V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;11 and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.12

VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto,13 does in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner,14 whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God,15 and curse of the law,16 and so made subject to death,17 with all miseries spiritual,18 temporal,19 and eternal.20​

In other words, the sin nature is damnable all by itself. Actually, all mankind is already damned in Adam, federally. It is a hell-bound race before a single one of us is born into it. So, you were judged and condemned in Adam a long, long time ago. I'm sure that smacks most readers initially as "unfair."

That judgment is irrespective of a judgment of the quality of the individual. But secondly, the quality of the individual by nature is corrupt. It makes no difference for the corrupt person to protest his condemnation, on the basis that he had not yet fulfilled any of his nasty potential. God is not a human judge, nor does the creature judged have both good-and-bad potential. The only solution for this problem condition is a change in nature.

Besides these considerations, the fact is that the corrupt soul dropped into hell does not cease from sinning as soon as it obtains motion. The condition of death only exacerbates the sinful inclinations of the evil gremlin. We shouldn't imagine any in hell remain morally static in the exact state they were the moment their heart stopped or brain shut down in the land of life.

If we consider for a moment the lot of the elect infants, we accept they are received in heaven not on account of any of their own "thoughts, words, and deeds," (however those might be judged, or even be found), but on the basis of Christ's thoughts, words, and deeds.

So, whether we wish to enhance anything done by an infant, or excuse him, the reality is that there isn't much there to judge him by; but that evaluation has no impact on his ultimate destiny. But neither does the same evaluation for someone older, but only on his relative destiny. Will the damned be beaten by many stripes, or by few (Lk.12:47-48)?

I hope this is helpful.
 
There's no doubt that infants in their fallen state are justifiably damnable. But the spirtual condition of infants, which makes them damnable, doesn't seem to make them "accountable for thoughts, words, and deeds" (LBC). It would seem that for infants, there would be no point in God demanding an account of thought, words, or deeds, since they lacked, while on earth, the power to think, speak, or otherwise act. The charge against infants would have to be, or so it seems, their actual nature and not their actions. And so I wonder here if the LBC should be read as containing a hidden asterisk for the unaccountable, and for these to be answerable to a seperate charge of being corrupt by nature only, the tribunal sentence being the same but with an understanding that no true charge of offenses of thought, word, or deed could be justifiably made against them. Perhaps the confession, when it spoke of "all persons that have lived upon the earth," meant only those persons capable of thought, word, or deed, and that those not capable of these things would be judged independently of what they did (which would be nothing) and judged instead on the basis of their nature only.
 
That would indeed be Pauline Theology on Justification, as all are found either as sinners in Adam in the flesh/sinnatures, or else alive in Christ...
 
God has chosen to apply the benefots of the atonging work of Jesus towards the likes of infants/mentally challenged for example, correct?

They do deservet to be judged and punished as being found guilty of being sinners in their very natures, but has He not elected to do for them what they could not do for themselves
 
I don't think we know what God's intent for infants is (and by "infants" of course we're talking about those who die in infancy). I believe the majority Reformed view on the status of infants, which strikes me as completely sound, is that God may have elected all infants, may have elected none, or may have elected some but not others. To assign all infants to either heaven or hell presumes more knowledge than we can reasonably claim.
 
That would make sense...

My reasoning would be based upon the revelation of God in Jesus as One who would have all little children come unto Himself, to be part of His Kingdom...
 
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