I am curious what everyone's thoughts are on whether or not a pastor should be punctual. I've know pastors who purposefully don't set a time that a service ends so that can go as long as they need to. And I've also know pastors who publicly apologize for going ten minutes late. I probably lean more towards being punctual, but I do not have any direct passages that would support that view. What do people here think? Should a pastor end his sermon at the same time or should a pastor be able to go as long as he wants?
Should a pastor end on time?
- Thread starter JMC
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Rom
Puritan Board Junior
I think for the sake of circumstances ordered according to our society and Christian prudence (WCF 1.6) services should end roughly at the time that they are slated to. HOWEVER, if the Spirit is at work in the preaching of the Word, and the man needs to not quench the work of the Spirit, let him preach longer (or shorter). A few times I have had to put the expectation in the congregation as I preach a bit long - "I know I am going long, but we must consider what the Lord is saying here..."
D
Deleted member 13126
Guest
I believe it has been said that if anyone goes over 40 minutes at the Metropolitan Tabernacle, a trapdoor opens from behind the pulpit under the feet of the preacher.
Spurgeon had a bit to say on this topic also, and routinely wouldn’t get through all of his notes.
Spurgeon had a bit to say on this topic also, and routinely wouldn’t get through all of his notes.
ZackF
Puritan Board Professor
Spurgeon was an outlier, a genius. His preparation routines reflected that.
Phil D.
ὁ βαπτιστὴς
A guest speaker at our church told of another place that he once preached at, which had a strict 25 minute limit on all sermons. There was a large clock on the the back wall of the sanctuary to help enforce this. However, to his surprise, at the 24 minute mark someone got up in the back, demonstratively pointed to the clock, and essentially counted down the last 15 seconds. At that point the person gave the universal hand-across-the-throat gesture to stop, upon which he promptly stopped speaking mid-sentence, picked up his Bible, and walked off the platform...
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ZackF
Puritan Board Professor
That reads more like a wedding chapel in Vegas than a gathering of saints.
J.L. Allen
Puritan Board Sophomore
That is horrifying.
I tend to exhort for 30-40 mins. I have given exhortations that were between 20-30 mins, too. I'm not opposed to shorter sermons as they can well serve people of all levels of ability to listen. Longer sermons, for congregants who can maintain their focus, provide an opportunity to feast deeply. That said, the man preaching may be able to do more in 25 mins than some could in 50 mins.
Here's my 2 cents (not counting an adjustment for inflation): pastors need to know how to land the plane! It's painful when a man preaches a fantastic sermon and then circles the runway for another however many minutes longer. I would rather have a Midway or San Diego landing than a conclusion that is nearly half of the sermon.
Phil D.
ὁ βαπτιστὴς
I think it was before he became Reformed, and was working with the Navigators, so the incident probably happened at a somewhat non-traditional church.
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
I'm a deeply committed proponent of ending "on time." (And of beginning on time, too.) Time is our most precious commodity and it is *rude* and *disrespectful* to show disregard for the time of others. If the spirit of the prophet is subject to the control of the prophet, how much more is the spirit of the preacher subject to the control of the preacher. So start on time, organize your message well, and if you're about to go long then find a convenient place to pause the message until the following week.
Who knows how many mommies and daddies and kiddos are struggling to pay attention. And don't forget about nursery workers and SS teachers, all of whom have time constraints themselves. So manage yourself, preacher, and control the spirit within you.
Who knows how many mommies and daddies and kiddos are struggling to pay attention. And don't forget about nursery workers and SS teachers, all of whom have time constraints themselves. So manage yourself, preacher, and control the spirit within you.
It is said that Scottish Presbyterian and Covenanter James Durham (1622-1658) was strict about keeping to the glass (hour glass).
D
Deleted member 13126
Guest
I’ve been very blessed by these collected sermons of his you published, by that way. Connecting the ‘st’ and similar lettering was an interesting choice. Initially I thought it would be too distracting but it’s a very nice read. Thanks for putting it together.
Rom
Puritan Board Junior
I am especially committed to the beginning on-time principle. I have been in some congregations where the start time was based on when the minister decided people were done visiting with each other before service. Which is ridiculous when we are preparing to worship God.
Also, it must be said that Sabbath-keeping principles tie deeply into our view of corporate worship. In some congregations, people get upset for not ending precisely on time because ... well, Golden Corral is calling out to them. In our congregation, ending five to ten minutes past noon (our typical end time) is not a huge problem, because most will stay for the fellowship lunch afterward and the afternoon service after that. Also, a minister who has lost the attention of his congregation should not be preaching long either but ought to cease - however, when I have gone long, it is because the people are still enraptured and paying attention.
So there are many principles at work in dealing with this subject.
Also, it must be said that Sabbath-keeping principles tie deeply into our view of corporate worship. In some congregations, people get upset for not ending precisely on time because ... well, Golden Corral is calling out to them. In our congregation, ending five to ten minutes past noon (our typical end time) is not a huge problem, because most will stay for the fellowship lunch afterward and the afternoon service after that. Also, a minister who has lost the attention of his congregation should not be preaching long either but ought to cease - however, when I have gone long, it is because the people are still enraptured and paying attention.
So there are many principles at work in dealing with this subject.
Phil D.
ὁ βαπτιστὴς
I grew-up in a Pentecostalish group where sermons (interspersed with singing, etc.) could last for hours. Imagine the adjustment when I started going to a church where the sermon was typically 45 minutes or so... Personally, as a congregant, I don't mind if a sermon stretches a little beyond the normal time. There are times I've sat through longer sermons that were so good they held my rapt attention and time became irrelevant.
greenbaggins
Puritan Board Doctor
A word for preachers: never use the words "and finally..." It gets their hopes up.
Seriously, though, there should be no clock, in my opinion. A pastor should aim to be fairly consistent. And here it is vitally important that we recognize that every pastor has his own "sweet spot" when it comes to time. Some speak faster. Others speak more slowly. For example, I speak relatively quickly, and my "sweet spot" is 25 minutes. There's probably some who would be horrified to learn that I don't go 45 minutes or an hour. But I am not that kind of a preacher. I would much rather have them wanting more than less. That's the way I roll. I think a congregation that is more concerned about time than they are with the content of the sermon is barking up the wrong tree (and most likely have some idols they need to get rid of).
Seriously, though, there should be no clock, in my opinion. A pastor should aim to be fairly consistent. And here it is vitally important that we recognize that every pastor has his own "sweet spot" when it comes to time. Some speak faster. Others speak more slowly. For example, I speak relatively quickly, and my "sweet spot" is 25 minutes. There's probably some who would be horrified to learn that I don't go 45 minutes or an hour. But I am not that kind of a preacher. I would much rather have them wanting more than less. That's the way I roll. I think a congregation that is more concerned about time than they are with the content of the sermon is barking up the wrong tree (and most likely have some idols they need to get rid of).
ZackF
Puritan Board Professor
25 minutes. I didn’t know you could be reformed.
Jack K
Puritan Board Doctor
It's good not to be ruled by the clock, but yet aware of the clock. A sermon (and with it the whole service) should be allowed to sometimes run longer than usual on two conditions: (1) The preacher should make sure he actually has something worth saying that can hold interest that long. (2) The "overtime period" should not run on too far beyond what's expected, since some people have trouble sitting for long, or have child-rearing needs, or have toilet needs, etc. and they have made arrangements that let them get through a service of a certain expected length.
I love all the feedback and thoughts. It seems like there are some different views, but for the most part it is good to end on time and some say its okay to go a little longer. For the people who say its okay to go longer, what would you say is okay? is it okay to go over 5-10 minutes every single week? Is it fine to go over 60 minutes over every week? The problem I'm having is that the preacher is going 40 minutes past usually every week. Sometimes if we are lucky he will only go fifteen minutes past. very rarely it will end on time (like once every six months) It's gotten to the point where they have stopped showing the end time on the website so they don't have to be bound by an end time. It really wouldn't bother me. There isn't some place I would rather be. But I got infants who needs naps. It could also be my personality, but it kind of drives me crazy to not know when the service is going to end. The preaching goes for about 1 hour to and hour and fifteen minutes, and rarely it will actually go 40 minutes (again, once every six months). My wife and I will usually miss the last several minutes because we have to put kids to nap and we don't know if its going to be another 2 minutes or another 40 minutes. But I don't really see anything in scripture about this
TheInquirer
Puritan Board Junior
I have two wishes:
1) That people would value the state of their souls and good teaching more than an extra 10 minutes
2) That pastors would work hard to refine their sermons to be the most useful in the agreed upon time. It takes work to edit and refine any work but well worth the investment for effective communication.
Overall, we should be gracious to our pastors and value all who faithfully work hard to feed us well.
1) That people would value the state of their souls and good teaching more than an extra 10 minutes
2) That pastors would work hard to refine their sermons to be the most useful in the agreed upon time. It takes work to edit and refine any work but well worth the investment for effective communication.
Overall, we should be gracious to our pastors and value all who faithfully work hard to feed us well.
Rom
Puritan Board Junior
When I go over it is in the realm of 5 to 10 minutes. Maybe 15 minutes at the very worst and very, very rarely (also sometimes our Scripture readings and prayers or singing can contribute to it). Forty minutes past a typical end time is pretty wild! Scripturally, a worship service should be done decently and in order (1 Corinthians 14:40), so having such an unpredictable end time is pretty problematic if things are as you note.
I also have markers along the way of the sermon via (typically three) headings that allow someone to gauge where they are in the time allotment and some have commented to me that is quite helpful to them.
Maybe you can speak to the minister of your congregation one on one - take him out to have coffee as your treat and encourage how he has fed your soul but that there is a difficulty with little kids not knowing when the service will end and yet you do not want to disrespect God and His worship by leaving before the service has concluded.
I also have markers along the way of the sermon via (typically three) headings that allow someone to gauge where they are in the time allotment and some have commented to me that is quite helpful to them.
Maybe you can speak to the minister of your congregation one on one - take him out to have coffee as your treat and encourage how he has fed your soul but that there is a difficulty with little kids not knowing when the service will end and yet you do not want to disrespect God and His worship by leaving before the service has concluded.
DanSSwing
Puritan Board Sophomore
Steve Curtis
Puritan Board Senior
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
We publish start times but not stop times. Services generally run 70-75 minutes. The senior pastor and associates seem to have more flexibility than the assistants. Services definitely run longer when communion is offered. I think times are tighter at the 8:00 service where communion is offered weekly. I haven't been to one of those services since they moved it to the chapel. Other activities can impact the length of the service - the number of baptisms, ordinations, congregational meetings, etc.
Start hitting 75 minutes and the ushers start pushing back - it does take time to clear the room and straighten up between services. Particularly on communion Sundays. If a service routinely runs 40 minutes over, it's time to do a couple of things - revise the liturgy, and give the preacher an ego check. Because at that point, he may be the main one enjoying hearing himself speak.
Start hitting 75 minutes and the ushers start pushing back - it does take time to clear the room and straighten up between services. Particularly on communion Sundays. If a service routinely runs 40 minutes over, it's time to do a couple of things - revise the liturgy, and give the preacher an ego check. Because at that point, he may be the main one enjoying hearing himself speak.
This is about more than ending on time. A man who regularly preaches 60-75 minutes has a problem. Unless he is Sinclair Ferguson, this is going to be tedium for his hearers and make him less effective as a preacher. There is no reason a perfectly suitable, exegetical sermon cannot be done in 35-45 minutes.
SeanPatrickCornell
Puritan Board Junior
A pastor should preach for exactly as long as it takes to deliver his sermon, and not a second less.
Steve Curtis
Puritan Board Senior
Or more!
PaulCLawton
Puritan Board Freshman
I don't think a pastor should be overly concerned with the length of his sermon, and neither should his listeners. As an elder, I have fielded complaints about the length of a minister's sermon before, and usually my response is, "Oh, do you have somewhere more important to be?" If the complaint was well thought-out and not just a quick gripe right after the service, I would spend a little more time on the response.
That being said, I have heard sermons that were too long; not strictly by the number of minutes, but because the introduction was overly long, six examples were given when the point was made after two, personal anecdotes were multiplied, and there was an overall lack of concision and little attention was paid to the economy of language. These kinds of thing (especially sloppy writing and editing) weary the listener and can make 50 minutes seem like 90.
I have also heard 40-minute sermons that could have gone on for another hour as far as I was concerned. I have several small children myself so I am inclined to sympathize with those who prefer shorter sermons for children’s sake, but…come on! This is the Lord speaking to his people here, through the words of his servant. Surely your children will be better off hearing God’s word preached than they will be with another 20 minutes to nap or play. “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”
I believe it is still the custom in many (if not all) Heritage Reformed Churches that a psalm is sung (while standing) by the congregation at about the two-thirds mark of the (relatively long) sermon. I have always assumed this was done as an accommodation to drowsy listeners, and I have always thought it was a good practice.
That being said, I have heard sermons that were too long; not strictly by the number of minutes, but because the introduction was overly long, six examples were given when the point was made after two, personal anecdotes were multiplied, and there was an overall lack of concision and little attention was paid to the economy of language. These kinds of thing (especially sloppy writing and editing) weary the listener and can make 50 minutes seem like 90.
I have also heard 40-minute sermons that could have gone on for another hour as far as I was concerned. I have several small children myself so I am inclined to sympathize with those who prefer shorter sermons for children’s sake, but…come on! This is the Lord speaking to his people here, through the words of his servant. Surely your children will be better off hearing God’s word preached than they will be with another 20 minutes to nap or play. “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”
I believe it is still the custom in many (if not all) Heritage Reformed Churches that a psalm is sung (while standing) by the congregation at about the two-thirds mark of the (relatively long) sermon. I have always assumed this was done as an accommodation to drowsy listeners, and I have always thought it was a good practice.
DanSSwing
Puritan Board Sophomore
Practical considerations also need to be taken into account. I helped plant a church where most of the congregants had to travel by bus. If the service did not end in time for them to catch the return bus home, they could be stuck waiting for an extra hour or more.
Mr. Great-Heart
Puritan Board Freshman
This is a different question than the OP so I'll respond to this - if the congregation is expecting some range and then more often than not the pastor goes 15-40 minutes beyond.. well, maybe growth is needed on both sides but I don't think this is the most edifying way to continue proceeding. Ezekiel 34:21 comes to mind in terms of how the shepherd could be treating his sheep, though very likely unintentionally.
Also, as evidenced in this thread, there are likely some in the congregation who soak in the whole sermon no matter how long it goes, and might even encourage the man to preach longer, but, remember what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:22.
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