Requirements for interns - same as elders?

[CatherineL]

My husband requested that I ask this, hoping that especially you PCA pastors/elders might have some imput. Does a church intern have to meet all the same requirements as an elder? We thought that this would be the case, but have been told otherwise - the the internship process is a time of discerning a person's call, and that he doesn't *necessarily* need to have all the requirements met at the time of the internship. He looked at the BCO and couldn't find anything specifically saying that the same elder requirements should be met. Help clarifying this would be greatly appreciated.

 

[jogri17]

no clue but adorable baby

 

[raekwon]

Hi Catherine,

The BCO's requirements for a man to enter a formal internship are:
1) Candidacy for ministry in the presbytery he'll be interning in
2) A written/and or oral statement of his internal call to ministry

So to answer your question, no, the requirements are not the same. It should be said, though, that all Christians, male or female, headed toward ministry or not, should aspire to the eldership requirements laid out in 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1 (except for, perhaps, the ability to teach). Those are things that should be said of all followers of Christ.

 

[Romans922]

Could you be more specific about 'requirements'? Do you mean qualifications, like 1 Timothy, Titus? Or what needs to be done, what is required to become an intern/elder?

If the later, then what is required for someone to become an elder is determined by the Church (although it is basically, according to the BCO the same, nominations from the congregation, training, examination, elected by congregation, ordination).

To become an intern in a presbytery (which must be done before one can be ordained), one has to be a member in good standing of a PCA church for a least 6 months. The session has to approve him for candidacy and internship to presbytery. He has to meet with a committee of presbytery (usually) and be approved there. What an intern has to do at the presbytery level is different for each presbytery.

To just become an intern at a church, just to be an intern with no presbytery affiliation, then the session merely has to approve you to be an intern.

So could you be more specific if that doesn't answer your question?

-----Added 10/8/2009 at 02:07:29 EST-----

hi catherine,

the bco's requirements for a man to enter a formal internship are:
1) candidacy for ministry in the presbytery he'll be interning in
2) a written/and or oral statement of his internal call to ministry

so to answer your question, no, the requirements are not the same. It should be said, though, that all christians, male or female, headed toward ministry or not, should aspire to the eldership requirements laid out in 1 tim 3 and titus 1 (except for, perhaps, the ability to teach). Those are things that should be said of all follower of Christ.

female?

 

[raekwon]

Yes. All of the requirements laid out in those passages (except the ability to teach, like I said) should be things that ALL Christians aspire to (substituting "one-man woman" for "one-woman man" in the case of women, of course).

Right?

 

[Romans922]

Yes. All of the requirements laid out in those passages (except the ability to teach, like I said) should be things that ALL Christians aspire to (substituting "one-man woman" for "one-woman man" in the case of women, of course).

Right?

Yes, I thought you were saying that men/women should fit these requirements before pursuing office! I know that wasn't what you meant but I had to ask!

-----Added 10/8/2009 at 02:19:14 EST-----

Also, Catherine make sure he reads chapter 18 and 19-7 through 16.

Formal internships, one must be a candidate (chapter 18) before internship (chapter 19).

 

[CatherineL]

At the risk of being too specific, the question he had applied to the qualifications listed in 1 Timothy and Titus relating to management of household. If there is a known issue in that case, we have been told this doesn't necessarily disqualify one from being an intern. Just clarifying what the general take on this is, since we've never had experience at other churches with this, and this seems different from our experiences elsewhere.

 

[Romans922]

I guess it depends one how and what has been done in this area. The question then that you're bringing up is a question that similarily was answered for me when I became a candidate/intern. I personally had piety problems in some area, and so until I got those resolved the presbytery (committee) did not pass me until those issues were handled.

I would say the same should be done in your husband's case. But without specifics I don't really know how to answer the question. As it concerns management of the home, if there is a rebellious child, that wouldn't necessarily bar someone (but it should draw some concern, especially if multiple children in the home are this way). If a rebellious wife, unsubmissive wife or a bad leader/shepherd (that should draw much concern).

I have two final thoughts: 1) If one is becoming an intern (they are looking to pursue pastoral ministry, they are being tested for that purpose), this being so, I was just reading Charles Spurgeon's Lectures to My Students. In there he says (I'm paraphrasing) that a man shouldn't pursue ordination or being in the ministry if his life doesn't match up with the qualifications. Now no one is perfect, but depending on what the problem is and the degree of the problem concerning the qualifications, would determine if one should pursue pastoral ministry (and thus internship) or not (at this time). One can always improve in holiness, myself being the example (PRAISE GOD), and then go through with internship leading to pastoral ministry.

2) Submit to the authorities. Put yourself (your husband) under the authority of your Session. And communicate what the trouble is and go from there. Seek their wisdom about how to go about this process. Do the same at the presbytery level.

Watch out for a common problem within sessions/presbyteries, that want to pass a man too quickly, when he isn't qualified, when he isn't ready (because of piety), or because he hasn't trained well. Don't be in a rush to be ordained, it won't help anyone.

 

[CatherineL]

Thanks for your input. I'm sorry to have been unclear - my husband is *not* the one seeking to be an intern. Our church recently took on two men as interns. My husband approached the session about a concern that he had regarding one of the interns wife being a non-believer (at at the very least not attending church). The session advised him that they were aware of this issue, but it did not necessarily disqualify the brother from the internship, and they were going to watch the situation closely. As time has passed, and the intern has taken on more and more teaching responsibilities (leading music worship, teaching Sunday school, and now he will be coordinating another Sunday worship service). We are seeking to love this dear man and encourage him, because we know him and know that he has a love for the Lord and really feels called to the ministry, but my husband is concerned that our church might be ignoring biblical guidelines for practical expediency (ie the intern is really willing to serve a lot!).

edited to add: Thanks J.P. - we think she's even cuter now!

 

[Romans922]

Thanks for your input. I'm sorry to have been unclear - my husband is *not* the one seeking to be an intern. Our church recently took on two men as interns. My husband approached the session about a concern that he had regarding one of the interns wife being a non-believer (at at the very least not attending church). The session advised him that they were aware of this issue, but it did not necessarily disqualify the brother from the internship, and they were going to watch the situation closely. As time has passed, and the intern has taken on more and more teaching responsibilities (leading music worship, teaching Sunday school, and now he will be coordinating another Sunday worship service). We are seeking to love this dear man and encourage him, because we know him and know that he has a love for the Lord and really feels called to the ministry, but my husband is concerned that our church might be ignoring biblical guidelines for practical expediency (ie the intern is really willing to serve a lot!).

edited to add: Thanks J.P. - we think she's even cuter now!

Well, in that case have you followed Matthew 18? Have you (husband) gone to the brother and addressed an apparent sin, taken two/three witnesses, and then taken it to the Church? Are the interns, interns of the presbytery or just of your church? After all that, if nothing is done you have two options (Besides PRAYER), you can complain to the presbytery about it, or just leave it be. I dont know what I would do after taking it to the Church, depends on the situation. :| sorry to hear about your situation. That is sad. But very dangerous for that man.

 

[CatherineL]

We hadn't thought of it as a sin on the intern's behalf - we know that his heart is for his wife to change. My husband's main concern was whether its appropriate for him to be teaching so much, as he sees it as a disqualification related to having your house well ordered. However, since the session does *not* see it as such. I think the concern is being divisive, when the session has assured him (my husband) that they have it under control. He wanted to know if this is standard practice that the interns are a whole different animal from the elder.

 

[Romans922]

AH, I think I am now seeing your intent of your original question.

I would think that an intern in the PCA wouldn't be required to hold to the qualifications of elder, but SHOULD! Since they are pursuing pastoral ministry, that is. Like Rae, said, we should all strive to meet those qualifications because that is righteous. To manage one's household is righteous. Yet it is sin to not manage your household well.

But your session says they have it under control, then I would leave it in their hands.

It is standard practice that interns are not thought of as preparing for ministry so they must meet qualifications (but that doesn't make it right!). Elders are to demonstrate that they are more mature in the faith, which is why to be an elder you have to meet those qualifications, and yet all people should strive for those things for it is holiness. Although interns are not elders, they should be being trained to become elders, just like those nominated to be ruling elders in a church are trained (it doesn't mean they will be elders, but gifts are tested, and then they are elected by the church). It is basically the same as interns, they are being tested. If a candidate for RE was being tested, and it found that he didn't manage his household well, he would (hopefully) be asked to decline his nomination, and the session wouldn't approve him to go before the congregation. It SHOULD be the same for an intern, as he is being tested. In both cases, the church should work with such men that they would grow in those respective areas where they have failed to meet the qualifications. Perhaps in the future they will be ready to become elders.

 

[SemperEruditio]

I came undercare in February of this year. My wife became a member in November. While I was allowed to come undercare I was told that I would not be allowed to take licensure nor ordination unless my wife became a member. My wife and I talked about it and since we had time I prayed for her to join. She's had very bad experiences at churches were she became a member. She was hesitant but she did attend service. I was allowed to teach, preach, lead Sunday School, and whatever else they asked of me. However at least one member of the session would ask every few weeks how we were coming along with my wife's membership. One day out of the blue my wife said "I want to be a member."

I know for a fact that I would not have been taken undercare if my wife did not even attend the church. Initially when I was leaving my previous church and looking for another I asked my wife to attend Covenant Life. She was still attending Covenant Life while we began to attend our PCA church. Once I became a member of our PCA church she quit attending Covenant Life and it was a year until she became a member of our PCA church.

I would not be comfortable with your intern. Just as some were not comfortable with me I would not be comfortable with an intern whose wife does not even attend the church. I would give some leeway if the wife attends the church but is not a member but I would be leery of an intern whose wife does not even attend service.