Presbyterian government - Moderator or President?

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Miguel

Miguel

Puritan Board Freshman
Does anyone have any idea about a moderator of any presbyterian church that acts like a president of the denomination?

I'm asking this because in my home church in Brazil, they changed the word "moderator" in the BCO to "president", back in 1936. So I'm trying to figure out how and why they did that, and if it as any influence of any presbyterian church back on that time.

Any idea?

Miguel
 
Miguel,

I don't know the answer to your question, but the best way to find out may be to look at the minutes from that time period.
 
Could have been the easiest way to suit the legal requirements of the country. The Reformed Presbyterians in India have bishops, simply because Indian law knows how to deal with a church with someone that has that title (thanks, British Empire!) but not with other church governments. The government is Presbyterian in function, though.
 
Romans922 said:
Miguel,

I don't know the answer to your question, but the best way to find out may be to look at the minutes from that time period.
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I was thinking about visiting the Presbyterian Museum, and see if a can find that. By 1936 Brazil was still considered a mission of the PCUSA and keep a lot of old file from the Brazilian Mission there.
 
koenig said:
Could have been the easiest way to suit the legal requirements of the country. The Reformed Presbyterians in India have bishops, simply because Indian law knows how to deal with a church with someone that has that title (thanks, British Empire!) but not with other church governments. The government is Presbyterian in function, though.
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I do not think so. From 1876 to 1936 they used a translation/adaptation of the PCUS BCO. Which contained the word moderator. However, in 1936 when they made their own constitution, it is when they changed the term. by that time PCUSA had a lot influence on them. That is why I'm wondering, where this comes from. No the pastor who is the president, acts like a president of the church and not the moderator of the GA, he has a lot power.
 
You could contact the stated clerk and ask for those minutes (copies), or if he could give you the reason why the change happened.
 
Romans922 said:
You could contact the stated clerk and ask for those minutes (copies), or if he could give you the reason why the change happened.
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I wish it was easy like that. So you don't know of any precedent like we have in Brazil, here in the USA?
 
@Miguel
@Wayne

Not in Presbyterianism, in which the nomenclature for the presiding officer of a judicatory (session, presbytery, synod, or General Assembly) has been "moderator."

Now in Reformed churches, the presiding officer has been referred to either as "chairman" or "president."

Historically the title of such (or the form of address to such) has not determined his duties, with a "president" having clearly more power than a "moderator." It is interesting, however, if changing such (as happened in Brazil in 1936 ) meant something like "the president has more power than did the moderator." This may well be so.

One would want to understand the reason for the change (reflected in committee minutes and/or reports as well as Assembly minutes) as well as by comparing the Standing Rules of the GA (in addition to the actual wording in the Form of Government) before and after the change. What duties or privileges does the president have, by virtue of the change in 1936, that the moderator did not have? As I said, several things need to be checked to ascertain that.

Perhaps Wayne could help us out here. (I just saw A. Barnes post--at least the RCUS uses the language of "president').

Peace,
Alan
 
Good to know Alan. It may have even been a change just to distinguish from the European/N. American 'way' or for other cultural reasons.
 
Alan D. Strange said:
@Miguel
@Wayne

Not in Presbyterianism, in which the nomenclature for the presiding officer of a judicatory (session, presbytery, synod, or General Assembly) has been "moderator."

Now in Reformed churches, the presiding officer has been referred to either as "chairman" or "president."

Historically the title of such (or the form of address to such) has not determined his duties, with a "president" having clearly more power than a "moderator." It is interesting, however, if changing such (as happened in Brazil in 1936 ) meant something like "the president has more power than did the moderator." This may well be so.

One would want to understand the reason for the change (reflected in committee minutes and/or reports as well as Assembly minutes) as well as by comparing the Standing Rules of the GA (in addition to the actual wording in the Form of Government) before and after the change. What duties or privileges does the president have, by virtue of the change in 1936, that the moderator did not have? As I said, several things need to be checked to ascertain that.

Perhaps Wayne could help us out here. (I just saw A. Barnes post--at least the RCUS uses the language of "president').

Peace,
Alan
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Thanks Alan,

Your insight was very helpful.
However, Thornwell said;
"For obvious reasons, the Elder who preached would always be the Moderator or president of the council of his brethren, just as in the constitution of Presbyterian churches at the present day the Minister always moderates the Session."

James Henley Thornwell, The Collected Writings of James Henley Thornwell: Ecclesiastical, ed. John B. Adger and John L. Girardeau, vol. 4 (Richmond; New York; Philadelphia: Presbyterian Committee of Publication; Robert Carter & Brothers; Alfred Martien, 1873), 119.

If the term president has no precedent in the presbyterian church, where do you think that Thornwell took the expression president from?
 
Miguel said:
If the term president has no precedent in the presbyterian church, where do you think that Thornwell took the expression president from?
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I completely agree with Thornwell in his speaking of the minister (pastor) as one who ordinarily moderates the session or serves as the president of the council of his brethren. He's simply defining things, and the moderator is the one who presides at (or over) a meeting of the session, presbytery, etc. "President" simply means "the one who presides."

You may note here that Thornwell calls the session, "the council of brethren." That's simply defines it as president defines moderator, without otherwise renaming the session.

This still doesn't answer the question as to why the FG changed the nomenclature in 1936. Maybe it was to enhance the power and privilege accruing thereunto. Or maybe it was simply thought clearer to outsiders since "moderator" tends to be ecclesiastical Presbyterian-speak and not used outside our circles. Research of the question should bring light to the matter.

Peace,
Alan
 
Sorry, but I don't think I'll be much help here, but I'm learning from Alan's contributions! I've seen the term President used, but as I recall it was the context of a continental Reformed church.
 
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