To the above responses to me on my response to Meg;
Unless I misunderstood Meg, I believe she was referring to the communicants class or an outward confession. When something like 'the close' or 'closing with Christ' is mentioned, it sounds Arminian. It smacks of these ridiculous events that the Arminian requires and even the present day PCA seek. These 'events' are not necessarily prerequisite in salvation. I will not look for anything of that nature from my children as if schooled correctly in the ways of the Lord, they could easily parrot the ideas even to no avail. Talk is cheap. Time is the only close worthy of any respect or consideration.
*How elementary is the concept that faith without works is dead? Would this be a new concept to me? Think about your responses. Don't just type for the sake of typing. Obviously I was not referring to this........Some of the responses at times are ridiculously fundamental. It's almost embarassing reading them. (I have no idea that faith without works is dead. Please submit yourselves to prayer in my behalf that God would convert me as I do not know the gospel). In one of my last threads with openAir Boy, Craid S. and Paul M. piped in with the same type of elementary response in regards to knowledge and faith and then left the thread before hearing the rationale supporting my position. It's goofy. Do I have to qualify every statement I make with a systematic?
The communicants class; to me, is a joke and flies in the face of CT and faith. On one hand we say we trust God in His promise, on the other we have to 'see' and hear (as in an outward confession) things, just like the Arminian. We don't really trust God, we trust men. The comunicants class proves nothing. Just because a kid can parrot soemthing does not mean they are converted. The devils know the scriptures and even tremble; they are not saved!
Megs statement had to do with PE and the "closing". The closing is something that the Arminian does, i.e. the altar call, the confession, the prayer. These things the Arminian needs. He does not trust God. He is like Thomas; he must put his fingers in the hole before he will believe.
If my child has no 'experience', no outwards statements, yet lives like a believer, has good works, I will look for nothing but depend by faith on Gods promise to me and my seed! I will trust Christ. I will not goad a confession out of her or ask that she take the communicants class. In fact, I will fight tooth and nail against it when the time comes.
Fred,
The passages you cite, they are not reflective of any 'close'. They are reflective of fruit of the disciple. This has nothing to do with 'closing' or what I meant. The WCF statements are along the same lines.
The chatechism says alot!
Q165: What is Baptism?
A165: Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, wherein Christ hath ordained the washing with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,[1] to be a sign and seal of ingrafting into himself,[2] of remission of sins by his blood,[3] and regeneration by his Spirit;[4] of adoption,[5] and resurrection unto everlasting life;[6] and whereby the parties baptized are solemnly admitted into the visible church,[7] and enter into an open and professed engagement to be wholly and only the Lord's.[8]
1. Matt. 28:19
2. Gal. 3:27
3. Mark 1:4; Rev. 1:5
4. Titus 3:5; Eph. 5:26
5. Gal. 3:26-27
6. I Cor. 15:29; Rom. 6:5
7. I Cor. 12:13
8. Rom. 6:4
and from Calvins institutes:
14. Sign and thing
Now that the end to which the Lord had regard in the institution of baptism has been explained, it is easy to judge in what way we ought to use and receive it. For inasmuch as it is appointed to elevate, nourish, and confirm our faith, we are to receive it as from the hand of its author, being firmly persuaded that it is himself who speaks to us by means of the sign; that it is himself who washes and purifies us, and effaces the remembrance of our faults; that it is himself who makes us the partakers of his death, destroys the kingdom of Satan, subdues the power of concupiscence, nay, makes us one with himself, that being clothed with him we may be accounted the children of God. These things I say, we ought to feel as truly and certainly in our mind as we see our body washed, immersed, and surrounded with water. For this analogy or similitude furnishes the surest rule in the sacraments, viz., that in corporeal things we are to see spiritual, just as if they were actually exhibited to our eye, since the Lord has been pleased to represent them by such figures; not that such graces are included and bound in the sacrament, so as to be conferred by its efficacy, but only that by this badge the Lord declares to us that he is pleased to bestow all these things upon us. Nor does he merely feed our eyes with bare show; he leads us to the actual object, and effectually performs what he figures.
15. Baptism as confirming faith
We have a proof of this in Cornelius, the centurion, who, after he had been previously endued with the graces of the Holy Spirit, was baptised for the remission of sins, not seeking a fuller forgiveness from baptism, but a surer exercise of faith; nay, an argument for assurance from a pledge. It will, perhaps, be objected, Why did Ananias say to Paul that he washed away his sins by baptism, (Acts 22:16; cf. ch 9:17-18) if sins are not washed away by the power of baptism? I answer, we are said to receive, procure, and obtain, whatever according to the perception of our faith is exhibited to us by the Lord, whether he then attests it for the first time, or gives additional confirmation to what he had previously attested. All then that Ananias meant to say was, Be baptised, Paul, that you may be assured that your sins are forgiven you. In baptism, the Lord promises forgiveness of sins: receive it, and be secure.
I have no intention however, to detract from the power of baptism. I would only add to the sign the substance and reality, inasmuch as God works by external means. But from this sacrament, as from all others, we gain nothing, unless in so far as we receive in faith. If faith is wanting, it will be an evidence of our ingratitude by which we are proved guilty before God, for not believing the promise there given.
In so far as it is a sign of our confession, we ought thereby to testify that we confide in the mercy of God, and are pure, through the forgiveness of sins which Christ Jesus has procured for us; that we have entered into the Church of God, that with one consent of faith and love we may live in concord with all believers. This last was Paul's meaning, when he said that "by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body," (1 Cor. 12: 13.)
God commands I place the sign upon Zoe; I respond in faith. I did this based upon the above. If I felt the way many of you feel in regards to your childs position in Christ and what baptism actually means to you, I would have not submitted her to it and I would have waited then until I saw fruit and actually heard a confession (ultimately Baptististic principles)
God commands I rear her in the way she should go; I will respond in obedience. Gods word says that if I rear her in the way she should go, she will not depart from it. This I trust. God is faithful, men are not. I will not be double minded. I will not doubt God. I will however hold my daughter responsible. If she is faithless, I will not hold God responsible for her faithlessness. God is never irresponsible.
From the WCF:
Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter xxviii
Of Baptism
I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church; but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in the newness of life. Which sacrament is, by Christ's own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.
It's early and I'm cranky. Forgive me, but I'm getting tired of the nonsensical posts.
For the record, this is the position Schenck's book endorses.
[Edited on 11-21-2004 by Scott Bushey]
2) nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.(3)