God's presence

[Barney]

The Presence: What You Want Most

"The entire created world is a type of speech from God."

wm.wts.edu

Quote:

You and I are inhaling it at this very moment. We’ve no choice in the matter. Once you breathe, you breathe his presence. Yet, we don’t often feel that presence.​

I like the sound of this closeness of God. I know we cannot escape the presence of God. Does this book seem sound theologically? I'm genuinely interested in others thoughts on this. Thanks.

 

[lynnie]

It sounds lovely. Hub and I both enjoy reading Frame enormously. He was one of hub's favorite profs at WTS. I love the way he thinks and the way he dives into the original languages and the questions he asks that makes us really think.

A few comments, just so you know....

One, in the past, he has been positively annoying in my opinion with his "triperspectivalism" and three this and three that all the time. I don't know about this book, and it doesn't take away from his deep theological thinking, but if you notice it and go "huh?", at least you'll be aware that it's often part of his approach to theology.

Second, he was at Westminster Theological Seminary in PA, then went out to Westminster Seminary CA, and after that he wrote a book called the Escondido Theology that basically labeled the gang out there a cult. I don't remember having a problem with anything he said but I am admittedly not well read on it all. But one of their more prominent confessional spokesmen has gone out of his way to blast what he calls a quest for experiential reality, like seeking the real presence of God. That man labels Jonathan Edwards, Iain Murray, Lloyd-Jones, and a host of other godly Reformed men as off, because they talk about all those experiential things like the presence of the Lord, revival, and so forth.

Did you read any of the wonderful, encouraging, posts that Ed Walsh has made over the past year here, about his prayer life and experiencing the glorious presence of the Lord? They have been a great help to me and helped me spend much more time in prayer and grow closer- experientially- to the Lord and to scripture. In some ways, facing the end of the nation I have known and encroaching tyranny, depravity, and economic hardships, I am more grateful for Ed's posts encouraging me to draw near to God, than anything else here. ( And I really do like intellectual doctrine and theology!)

However, there is a camp in the Reformed community that would be aghast at saying things like sensing the presence of the Lord, asking for it, seeking it. It would be labeled as feelings, and not renewing the mind and doctrinal study and so forth. I would guess some people here share the view that its is all a quest for illegitimate spiritual reality. So if you read the book and love it, just don't expect to have others rejoice in what edifies and helps you. But I want to get it and I appreciate you posting the link!

Edit.... I saw the blurb at the top and thought the book was by Frame. Long tired day, sorry. It sounds good though, the bibliography looks good, the guy is from WTS. I wonder how much Frame influenced his thinking.

Everything I said about the different camps out there when it comes to experiential reality remains the same, so I'll just leave my post as is. And if you ever read more Frame it might come in handy, lol.

 

[Physeter]

I am not one to restrict God. The Bible does say that God does leave Creation as evidence of Himself for those who have not yet been exposed to the truth of the written word, so they are without excuse.

The experience side needs to be tempered with a strong diet of daily study of the written Word. I was a little suspicious of the title. I did read this article and was encouraged by it. God is not far off from the believer. I have been blessed by seeing the wonders of His creation. For me it does confirm His existence and bolsters my faith.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Liam,

I know you are familiar with my PB post, God’s Presence Our Portion. As regards Pierce Taylor Hibbs' piece you enquired about in the OP: When I read his statement I was in an unusual condition of really crushing weight upon my heart – things beyond my control to change – so I read with an open mind, hoping to find some relief. It didn't come, as Hibbs' was more of an intellectual – mental – exercise, and my state was deeper in my heart and spirit. So what did I do? I love this stanza of the hymn, "My hope is built on nothing less",

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His oath, his cov’nant, and his blood​

support me in the whelming flood;​

when all around my soul gives way,​

he then is all my hope and stay.​

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So I sang – even though it was late at night – the hymn, and a couple of others, so as to warm and lift my heart in praise and thanksgiving, and then I talked with the Lord Jesus simply from my heart, telling Him what was going on with me, and my lack of spiritual strength, and inability to counter it, but trusting that His strength is made perfect in my weakness (2 Cor 12:9, 10). As I was confiding to Him my crushedness and poverty of spirit, I also read – slowly, and from the heart – Ephesians 6:10-18. After a while, with this feeble sort of praying, I could sense that my heart was lifted and buoyant and no longer crushed down. Not from "mighty prayer" but just my natural sharing with Him my sorry state.

It was not an intellectual realization that helped me, which is what Hibbs presented, but only direct communion and intimate fellowship with the living Person, with my Saviour's heart, who I knew could help, as the words, "when all around my soul gives way, You then are all my hope and stay" are indelibly imprinted on my heart.

Hibbs seems a fine and smart brother, but did not help me.

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[Ed Walsh]

Did you read any of the wonderful, encouraging, posts that Ed Walsh has made over the past year here, about his prayer life and experiencing the glorious presence of the Lord?

Lynnie, please,

Whenever I pray, or do, or in any way try to be helpful to anyone, having had a life of pride previously, I always ask God that if I am helpful, don't let me find out. Keep it from me until that Day. Now, what are you trying to do to ruin all this?

I always add this request as I pray. "All praise to you, my wonderful, glorious, good, patient, awesome, forgiving God of all, and the One who will by no means acquit the guilty-- the one who is far above all blessing and praise, and my Father in heaven, the only exception to the 'I never want to hear about anything useful I do or say,' rule is if when you know I'm so discouraged that I need a good word once in a while. Then that's OK with me. But that's it. Please and thank you. Amen." (Or words to that effect).

So I want to thank you for your kind word. I must have needed it. But please don't follow it up with anything. Please.

God bless you and yours. What you said did bless me. Now God, do your best to show me what a louse I am in everything else I do.

Ed

Nehemiah 9:1-3, 5-8​

Now on the twenty-fourth day of this month, the people of Israel were assembled with fasting and in sackcloth, and with earth on their heads.​

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And the Israelites separated themselves from all foreigners and stood and confessed their sins and the iniquities of their fathers. And they stood up in their place and read from the Book of the Law of the Lord their God for a quarter of the day; for another quarter of it they made confession and worshiped the Lord their God.​

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Then the Levites, Jeshua, Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabneiah, Sherebiah, Hodiah, Shebaniah, and Pethahiah, said,​

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Stand up and bless the Lord your God from everlasting to everlasting. Blessed be your glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise.​

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You are the Lord, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you. You are the Lord, the God who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and gave him the name Abraham. You found his heart faithful before you, and made with him the covenant to give to his offspring the land of the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Amorite, the Perizzite, the Jebusite, and the Girgashite. And you have kept your promise, for you are righteous.​

 

[Barney]

@lynnie
Thank you. No I've never read John Frame. Heard of him though so I'll look him up. Not read Ed Walsh yet but I certainly will. Wondered if he was Ed Welsh from CCEF for a moment. Yes I understand and appreciate the Reformed focus on The Objective Word of God but I guess it could be taken to an extreme. Thanks

 

[Barney]

@Physeter
Amen. Yes I found the article in a similar way. It was incouraging to remember just how near to His children God is. That's so right we need to grounded at least equally in The Word and also I think in the traditional protestant faith. Thanks

 

[Barney]

@Jerusalem Blade
Hello Steve,
Thanks for being honest and open with that personal experience. I found it very helpful. Yes i can relate to that. What a great God we have that when we are weary or heavy burdened we can turn to Him who loves us and we can rest in Him.
When I was pondering how life here could get much harder in the next few years I thought of the following verses, thinking no matter what the future may hold our life is safe with our Saviour.

Colossians 3:3-4
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

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[TheInquirer]

Breathing God's presence - not sure how the physical act of aspiring oxygen somehow inhales a divine Spirit.

As a former student of Frame, I can tell you at times he is brilliant and at times wonky and I've learned to read him more critically (thanks to folks here pointing out his shortcomings).

 

[lynnie]

Sorry Ed. LOL. I'll Try to fix it.

On your best day, where scripture is alive and feels like your very food, and you are caught up in praise and worship, and just had great fellowship talking to somebody heart to heart, and you are loving everybody around you well, and got a chance to evangelize, and heaven seems just so real, and your social media posting is a big hit.....

......on that great day, apart from the blood of Jesus and his passive obedience and active obedience merit imputed to you....you deserve to burn in hell forever, and are filthier in soul than anybody can even grasp. And its the same for all of us, even the greatest saints we most admire.

There. I did my best. But I still appreciate you posting so openly about the precious times you had in prayer and worship in the presence of the Lord, and I am grateful for what it sparked in my own life. All thanks and glory to the Lord!

 

[Ed Walsh]

Sorry Ed. LOL. I'll Try to fix it.

Lynnie,

Did you really think I meant I don't want to know about these things? Are you kidding? My pride just loves it when somebody positively mentions me.

But I really do pray like I said I do. Honest. I like talking to total strangers that live in other states. I know I'll never hear from them again. Not in this life. And quite possibly not in the next, either. I have been, to the best of my knowledge, quite unsuccessful and evangelism in my life. But I really do talk to everybody. It drives my wife crazy.

There are four categories of people that I keep my eyes open for. Black people, old ladies, particularly if they're in a motorized cart or using a walker. These once vibrant, beautiful young women are simply invisible in our culture. I look for special needs kids and adults also. Particularly if I sense they are the token "special" person the store hired to look good. I also talked to young people. Now and then, I'll speak to a "regular" person too. But they can be boring. As I said to someone in a private post recently, "when I go food shopping, I'm not there to shop. I'm fishing, and the food just kind of takes care of itself as I go through the store." It's wonderful that God has helped me lose the fear of man. Something I struggled with for 40 years. It's gone, thanks to the Great God we have.

Oh, I almost forgot. I love so-called atheists too. It is so much fun to look at them and start to smile and quickly break out into an uproarious laugh at their absurd, ridiculous "belief." I never try to prove the existence of God. Oh, they know all right. To try to prove God's existence makes them instantly relax now that you've joined their side. What do I mean? They quickly, if unconsciously, conclude, "Maybe not believing in God isn't so bad after all. I got this Christian fooled. He thinks I might not know that there's a God. He's on my side, after all. What a relief."

God bless from a big fan,

Ed

PS - sorry for going on and on. I've been up since 1:30 a.m., and I think I've had too much coffee.

Edit: What I said about laughing at atheists bothered my conscience a little. I do genuinely care for at least some of them. I truly loved Christopher Hitchens, and I have mourned greatly and cried often over his death. Unlike Dawkins, who's a real jerk, Hitchens always seemed like a hurt child. And from what I've heard, he had a really tough childhood with family sadness and tragedy. His defense of atheism could be summed up in one phrase. "There is no God, and I hate him." I'm weeping even now.