For paedos only!

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Weston Stoler

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I am going to a PCA church and I am fully opened to have my mind changed about infant baptism. I still do not find it scriptual. This is an open thread to have any paedobaptist who wants to convince me to have a shot. Like I said I am open and will submit to scripture if it is right. I just do not see it yet.
 
Hi Weston. It might be best to start simple. We believe in the baptism of believers' infants because the Head of the Church commands in the Great Commission the baptism of disciples, and we believe from both Testaments that infants of believers are to be regarded as disciples in the visible sense. We do not see any coming-of-age child baptisms in the New Testament, so any argument for waiting until they reach a certain level of demonstrable maturity and then baptizing them is ultimately as much an argument from silence as an argument for baptizing infants. You will notice in the New Testament that the pattern is for baptism to be an initiation into Christian discipleship, not a sign that a certain level of knowledge or maturity has been reached. Thus even Simon Magus was baptized when he initially professed faith, though he later proved to be apostate. Our children are discipled from birth, so they are initiated into Christian discipleship from the very beginning and we see no evidence in the New Testament to refrain from doing so.

I hope this helps. I am not the most qualified for an extended discussion on the merits of particular arguments, but the above is a summary of the aspects that were/are most convincing to me.
 
Perhaps you might say you do not find the case scripturally persuasive (at this time). Or, that you find the case for believer's only baptism more persuasive (at this time).:)

You will benefit in your PCA church from seeing the many baptisms that occur.

Notice that adults are baptized by profession AND infants of one or more believing parents are baptized.

By the Book of Church Order, and by well-trained teaching elders, there will be frequent and in-depth explanation of the sacrament of baptism- both at the time of adult baptism, and infant baptism.

As you see this pattern frequently modeled and thoroughly explained, an ordinance of corporate worship, it will likely become clear.

For me, I quickly came to "accept" the doctrine, allowing that there is more than one purpose in baptism.

Later, I came to understand the depth of promises to believers, and their children, and the dearness of them within the context of being set apart as a covenant community- believer's set apart and covenanted together to help one another for Christ's sake, and serve Him in this world.

This led to a "high" view of the church, which is a hallmark of reformed theology (as contrast to "broad evangelicalism").
 
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I support James White's ministry as I thoroughly enjoy listening to the Dividing Line and find he has an important apologetic ministry where few are providing the in-depth work on certain subjects. We obviously disagree in the Baptism issue.

I bring James up because recently he has been preparing for a debate with a Oneness Pentecostal and listening to a debate the man had with a Church of Christ minister. Over and over, the man (a modalist) makes arguments to the effect of "show me the verse that says that God is Trinity" and James is right to point out that certain Biblical truths are not derived by a single verse or verses of the Bible. For instance, on the subject of Christ's divinity there are so many passages that speak to His divinity to a Jewish audience that the Pharisees are ready to stone Him while a modern man with blind eyes is still waiting for the "proof text".

I bring this up because it really does make a difference on what you will accept as "Scriptural". Is the bar that an explicit example or a command that an infant be baptized the "Scriptural" support for baptism or is the person willing to put together logically connected Scriptural principles that necessitate an idea?

Furthermore, I think for most people who think along the lines of what I would call "Baptist thinking" make a pretty common logical leap that I think prevents them from getting down to the core issue. I don't say this pejoratively but it is simply my observation. Notice this thread that was discussed yesterday: http://www.puritanboard.com/f57/why-i-am-still-baptist-gonzales-69895/

Essentially the antipaedobaptist starts with the idea: clearly the New Covenant belongs to those who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and that is the elect alone.

Now, follow me here, all Reformed confessions believe that the Covenant of Grace is made in Christ and that the Elect alone receive the graces signified by it.

Where Baptist thinking gets stuck is that they make this assumption:
1. The New Covenant consists of the Elect Alone.
2. Some babies are not elect.
3. Because of the nature of the New Covenant we must not baptize those that may not be elect.

Now, I realize this is a gross simplification but when you read most interchanges on this issue there is a point at which most Baptists are sort of stuck on the eternal decree of God and the benefits of the NC and don't really ever want to move beyond that issue to the issue of how a Church visibly administers a sign that signifies the New Covenant.

There is a big difference there. That is to say, that which signifies the graces of the NC is not saying that it confers the graces of the NC.

The question I wish those who were challenging whether or not paedobaptist practice is Scriptural is to challenge their own assumption that a knowledge of who grace truly belongs to (the elect) gives us any knowledge as to who should be baptized. It does not for we will never know the elect. Some arguments will start with the above and then shift to a fourth proposition:

4. Profession of faith makes it more likely that the person is elect.
5. Profession thus ensures that the Church baptizes the least number of unregenerate individuals.

Now, I realize that once they're made the above logical connection, most will honestly admit at this point that the real reason they baptize professors is because they believe that God has commanded that only those who give a profession of faith are to be baptized. Nevertheless, the above thinking is always acting as a mental barrier of sorts to understand the point the Reformed are trying to make with respect to the nature of a Sacrament. Many cannot, in the final analysis, get over the idea that the Church doesn't have access to sufficient information to make a judgment call about whether a person is regenerate or not. There is a real concern, then, that Reformed Churches that practice paedobaptism should have a greater concern that unregenerate men and women and children might be in the Church and that the Church should be doing a better job of clearly identifying who they think are regenerate.

Reformed Churches, however, do not operate with the concern as to trying to come to a more or less assured understanding that a person is regenerate. We leave this to the operation of the Holy Spirit and what the means of grace of the Church will do by His sovereign operation.

This is a long way of saying that, in the final analysis, there is a fundamental way of thinking about the nature of what a disciple is.
1. Is a disciple one who the Church has formally recognized as most likely regenerate.
or
2. Is a disciple one who has come into the visible Kingdom of Christ by a credible profession and baptism or by baptism as a child and is under the instruction and admonition of the Word toward the end that he/she is built up in the faith or, by God's grace, converted to the faith?

The idea that a disciple (in the visible sense) might not be converted yet is an idea that is foreign to baptist thinking but is not foreign in Reformed thinking. I also believe that there is ample evidence in the Scriptures (i.e. the entire Book of Hebrews) that indicates that the visible Kingdom is exhorted to press in toward the end that they be built up and converted.

I'd have more to say but I have a lot to do. My point in all of this is to get you to think about what you have assumed about discipleship and what you can Biblically sustain through GNC. The issue of who gets baptized is often a consequence of understanding discipleship first and not the other way around.
 
Weston: As a Reformed Baptist for many years, I went back and forth on the subject of infant baptim. I really waged warfare with myself when I went to a Reformed Presbyterian seminary. Dr. Harold Mare and I used to go back and forth on this all the time. I just could not buy it.

Fast forward several years to my entry into Anglicanism where many hold that baptism regenerates. I could buy into that if it only pertained to professing adults or young people who could discern and make professions of faith in Christ. But no way could I accept the regeneration of infants.

So, back to studying the Reformed view of infant baptism. It finally made sense to me. It was the only logical answer as to how to treat the children of believers, ie, the initiation into the visible covenant family, yet there still must come the day of faith and repentance.

Coming into the covenant family is a family thing (obviously). Coming into the Kingdom is an individual thing.
 
I support James White's ministry as I thoroughly enjoy listening to the Dividing Line and find he has an important apologetic ministry where few are providing the in-depth work on certain subjects. We obviously disagree in the Baptism issue.

I bring James up because recently he has been preparing for a debate with a Oneness Pentecostal and listening to a debate the man had with a Church of Christ minister. Over and over, the man (a modalist) makes arguments to the effect of "show me the verse that says that God is Trinity" and James is right to point out that certain Biblical truths are not derived by a single verse or verses of the Bible. For instance, on the subject of Christ's divinity there are so many passages that speak to His divinity to a Jewish audience that the Pharisees are ready to stone Him while a modern man with blind eyes is still waiting for the "proof text".

I bring this up because it really does make a difference on what you will accept as "Scriptural". Is the bar that an explicit example or a command that an infant be baptized the "Scriptural" support for baptism or is the person willing to put together logically connected Scriptural principles that necessitate an idea?

Furthermore, I think for most people who think along the lines of what I would call "Baptist thinking" make a pretty common logical leap that I think prevents them from getting down to the core issue. I don't say this pejoratively but it is simply my observation. Notice this thread that was discussed yesterday: http://www.puritanboard.com/f57/why-i-am-still-baptist-gonzales-69895/

Essentially the antipaedobaptist starts with the idea: clearly the New Covenant belongs to those who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and that is the elect alone.

Now, follow me here, all Reformed confessions believe that the Covenant of Grace is made in Christ and that the Elect alone receive the graces signified by it.

Where Baptist thinking gets stuck is that they make this assumption:
1. The New Covenant consists of the Elect Alone.
2. Some babies are not elect.
3. Because of the nature of the New Covenant we must not baptize those that may not be elect.

Now, I realize this is a gross simplification but when you read most interchanges on this issue there is a point at which most Baptists are sort of stuck on the eternal decree of God and the benefits of the NC and don't really ever want to move beyond that issue to the issue of how a Church visibly administers a sign that signifies the New Covenant.

There is a big difference there. That is to say, that which signifies the graces of the NC is not saying that it confers the graces of the NC.

The question I wish those who were challenging whether or not paedobaptist practice is Scriptural is to challenge their own assumption that a knowledge of who grace truly belongs to (the elect) gives us any knowledge as to who should be baptized. It does not for we will never know the elect. Some arguments will start with the above and then shift to a fourth proposition:

4. Profession of faith makes it more likely that the person is elect.
5. Profession thus ensures that the Church baptizes the least number of unregenerate individuals.

Now, I realize that once they're made the above logical connection, most will honestly admit at this point that the real reason they baptize professors is because they believe that God has commanded that only those who give a profession of faith are to be baptized. Nevertheless, the above thinking is always acting as a mental barrier of sorts to understand the point the Reformed are trying to make with respect to the nature of a Sacrament. Many cannot, in the final analysis, get over the idea that the Church doesn't have access to sufficient information to make a judgment call about whether a person is regenerate or not. There is a real concern, then, that Reformed Churches that practice paedobaptism should have a greater concern that unregenerate men and women and children might be in the Church and that the Church should be doing a better job of clearly identifying who they think are regenerate.

Reformed Churches, however, do not operate with the concern as to trying to come to a more or less assured understanding that a person is regenerate. We leave this to the operation of the Holy Spirit and what the means of grace of the Church will do by His sovereign operation.

This is a long way of saying that, in the final analysis, there is a fundamental way of thinking about the nature of what a disciple is.
1. Is a disciple one who the Church has formally recognized as most likely regenerate.
or
2. Is a disciple one who has come into the visible Kingdom of Christ by a credible profession and baptism or by baptism as a child and is under the instruction and admonition of the Word toward the end that he/she is built up in the faith or, by God's grace, converted to the faith?

The idea that a disciple (in the visible sense) might not be converted yet is an idea that is foreign to baptist thinking but is not foreign in Reformed thinking. I also believe that there is ample evidence in the Scriptures (i.e. the entire Book of Hebrews) that indicates that the visible Kingdom is exhorted to press in toward the end that they be built up and converted.

I'd have more to say but I have a lot to do. My point in all of this is to get you to think about what you have assumed about discipleship and what you can Biblically sustain through GNC. The issue of who gets baptized is often a consequence of understanding discipleship first and not the other way around.

Rich, great post. I really wrestled with infant baptism, too. One day the Great Commission order of baptize ---> teach stood out to me. We do teach our children. We're commanded to teach our children. Well, then, we should baptize them first, shouldn't we? One of the things that led me to pedobaptism was a paradigm shift in the nature of discipleship.
 
For me it was relatively easy to accept infant baptism. I listened to Riddlebarger's lectures on the topic and read a couple of things by McMahon and I just found myself believing it. Providentially there was a Reformed Presbyterian congregation meeting literally a two minute walk away and the minister and I were able to hone the rough parts.
 
I was raised as an independent Baptist and when my nephew was going to baptised as an infant, my brother-in-law encouraged me to go through the scriptures and read passages on the Holy Spirit, sprinkling and circumcision. I was already a serious student of the Scriptures and I didn't get all the way through the OT before I had embraced sprinkling and infant baptism. I could see the connection between circumcision and baptism, and the connection between sprinkling and baptism something which I had not seen before.
 
I am going to a PCA church and I am fully opened to have my mind changed about infant baptism. I still do not find it scriptual. This is an open thread to have any paedobaptist who wants to convince me to have a shot. Like I said I am open and will submit to scripture if it is right. I just do not see it yet.

The Reformed Baptist position is just incomplete, truncated and dispensational when it comes to the issue of baptism.

The covenantal promises of the Bible respecting children of believers - however mysterious they may be, or difficult to understand how they operate under God's grace - must necessarily fall to the ground from the time of Christ onwards, if the Baptist position is correct.
 
It has been a while since I made this thread (I wasn't able to respond for a lack on internet). I was really wrestling with this issue but now the evidence is overwhelming. A week ago or so I decided to change my views here (as in my confession and denomination) from lbcf 1689 to WCF and from Baptist to Presbyterian. Today I was convinced without a shadow of a doubt that infants can and should be baptized. Thank you for giving me these really helpful words of wisdom. I would have never made the jump without it! Solia Deo Gloria!
 
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