Female Pastors

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Osage Bluestem

Puritan Board Junior
Does anyone know of a "scriptural" argument for female pastors?

The positions I have seen presented for this from the liberal denominations are that they don't believe the bible is inerrant so they reject the parts where it teaches women are not to pastor. They don't believe what Paul wrote is the Word of God generally so they also accept homosexual pastors. However, that does not present an argument from scripture for these positions.

Is there a bible believeing church that has female pastors just by sheer error? If there is, how do they scripturally justify it?
 
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No, God qualified the authoritative church offices for men as per I Timothy 3 and Titus 1 and it reflects the priority of creation in Genesis and I Timothy 2 and the example of all the early apostles and deacons (Acts 6).

Some will misrepresent "there is no male or female" (Galatians) to say it is somehow talking about church authority, but by context it is not at all- it is talking about salvation.

Galatians 3:28

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Click to expand...

So, no, there is no biblical argument, there are lots of the rebellious imaginations of men, making as it were, their own religion.
 
My father tried to use:

Galations 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Click to expand...

To argue for female pastors.
 
I think they attempt to justify it by taking an egalitarian understanding of the scriptures. Of course, I am not sure how they arrive at this either, but a beginning point might be something like Gal 3:28 -"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

(Update:Oops, I see some beat me to it!)
 
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Deborah is the main example I've heard. (I usually point out that while she was wise and insightful as she judged, it was Barak leading the people into battle). Then there is Priscilla and Aquilla as a team explaining the gospel to Apollos, so that means a wife is a co pastor :p

I do think that between examples of various women prophets and other godly women, churches might want to encourage older women to be doing counseling of younger women, instead of sometimes putting all that on male elders. I am not sure how men elders guarding the flock, and older women helping younger women according to scripture should be divided up, but churches should at least think about it. I've seen an awful lot of women over the years with serious emotional and relational problems, who I think in some cases might have been better off with a mother figure than the assistant pastor or elders for counseling. But hard to know what is best sometimes....
 
gene_mingo said:
My father tried to use:

Galations 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Click to expand...

To argue for female pastors.
Click to expand...

My brother and his wife argued Galatians 3:28.

I was also told, "if ANYONE desires the office of bishop..." 1 Timothy 3:1. See...ANYONE, male or female, can be a pastor!

Not even kidding! That is the "Scriptural" argument that I was given for female pastors. Is that not the most out of context statement you've ever heard?
 
There is section of the Church of England that is NOT liberal and believes the gospel - but allows lady ministers. I have met one such lady and she was to my mind sound in so many ways (especially on the gospel, jbfa etc).

The ground I have heard from those who claim to be Bible believers is that the commands ARE part of scripture, but that they are cultural and must be reinterpreted. Male headship is still on in the home, but not outside it. yeah, right.

Same lady I have in mind was vehemently against homosexuals in ministry. But how can there be this massive blind spot that fails to note that the same rationale for allowing her to minister allows homosexuals to minister?

Just my personal opinion, but I believe those ladies now actually preaching the gospel (yes, the true gospel - not the majority but a significant number) here in Britain are part of God's indictment upon the failure of men to be men.
 
Nathan Riese said:
gene_mingo said:
My father tried to use:

Galations 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Click to expand...

To argue for female pastors.
Click to expand...

My brother and his wife argued Galatians 3:28.

I was also told, "if ANYONE desires the office of bishop..." 1 Timothy 3:1. See...ANYONE, male or female, can be a pastor!

Not even kidding! That is the "Scriptural" argument that I was given for female pastors. Is that not the most out of context statement you've ever heard?
Click to expand...

That's pretty ironic considering most Bible translations use "any man" or "a man" there anyway.
 
I was curious, so I Googled. Came across this defense by a pastor (male) in an article called "What Does the Bible Say About Women Preachers?". . Here are his main points:
1. There is not one Scripture in the Bible that forbids women from preaching, but on the contrary, there are many verses that encourage both men and women to preach the Gospel...

2. The Bible teaches that God is not a respecter of persons, and He will use any and all who will yield to Him, regardless of race, age, or sex...

3. The Great Commission, Mark 16:15, "Preach the Gospel," is to ALL believers, and to all the church of Jesus Christ. The command to "preach the Gospel" is to both male and female...

4. It is an undeniable fact that God has called and anointed thousands of women to preach the Gospel. The Full Gospel organizations have hundreds of licensed and ordained women who are preaching, teaching, evangelizing, pastoring, and doing mission work with the signs following their ministry. God is using them for the salvation of the lost, deliverance from sin, gifts of the Spirit, and infilling of the Holy Spirit...

5. Women preachers are a fulfillment of Bible Prophecy and another sign of Christ's soon return to earth (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17-18)...

6. The Bible declares that women will prophesy: 1 Cor. 11:5, "For every woman that prayeth or prophesieth...."...

7. God called and used women preachers in the Old Testament...

8. God called and used women preachers in the New Testament...

9. There is no sound reason why a woman or man should not preach the Gospel. There is a desperate need in the church for more workers. Laborers are few, and God will use any and all who will go for Him. Some say God will not use a woman to preach, because "The woman was deceived," but remember Romans 5:12: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world." It seems to indicate that Adam was just as guilty as Eve in the fall of man. If anyone should be kept from preaching because of sin, it would be Adam. But God does not forbid anyone from preaching, because of Adam's or Eve's sin...

10. 1 Cor. 14: 34-35 does not say anything about women preachers. If Paul intended this verse as a general rule to bar all women from speaking in church, then they cannot teach Sunday School, testify, pray, prophesy, sing, or even get saved, and this would contradict the rest of the Bible (Acts 2:4; Acts 2:16-18)...

11. 1 Timothy 2:12 is not a blanket rule for all women of all churches. If it were, then the women could not speak at all, for the same verse that tells them not to teach also tells them to be silent...

12. Some have used Titus 1:6-7, "If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children...", but there is a difference between a preacher and a bishop. For I was an Evangelist and now am a Pastor, but I am not a Bishop (Overseer), and most Pastors are not...

13. To condemn women preachers and women church workers is a serious offense, because God has stamped His approval on them by His Spirit over and over again, and who is man to fight against the Spirit of God?...
Click to expand...
 
There is a method to scripturally justify female pastors......twist scripture like a pretzel and ignore the full counsel on the topic.
 
Galatians 3:28 and also Deborah both mentioned above. Also many Pentecostals point to the massive spread of their movement as proof the God blesses female pastors.
 
DD2009 said:
Does anyone know of a "scriptural" argument for female pastors?
Click to expand...

The best Biblical argument I've heard for female pastors came from Mardi Keyes who's with L'Abri. I didn't buy it, but the reason it was a good argument was she didn't try to make her case by prooftexting from a verse or two. She noted specific texts, but argued from the larger pattern of what the Bible says about men and women. So her scriptural argument was not something I could summarize by pointing you to a verse or two, even if I could remember it well enough to try.

Her "Feminism and the Bible" pamphlet contains most of what I heard, I think. Again, it didn't convince me. But it made me wonder a bit and I admired the argument. So if you really want to hear a decent argument...
 
Ah, more "jumbo shrimp." :D

To answer the question, the crux of it is using Gal. 3:28 and the example of Deborah (see the book of Judges) to argue for egalitarianism, and then arguing that the Scriptural prohibitions against female pastors are cultural and addressed specific issues in those particular churches, such as uneducated women calling across the isle to the men, asking them questions during church, etc.
 
Jack K said:
DD2009 said:
Does anyone know of a "scriptural" argument for female pastors?
Click to expand...

The best Biblical argument I've heard for female pastors came from Mardi Keyes who's with L'Abri. I didn't buy it, but the reason it was a good argument was she didn't try to make her case by prooftexting from a verse or two. She noted specific texts, but argued from the larger pattern of what the Bible says about men and women. So her scriptural argument was not something I could summarize by pointing you to a verse or two, even if I could remember it well enough to try.

Her "Feminism and the Bible" pamphlet contains most of what I heard, I think. Again, it didn't convince me. But it made me wonder a bit and I admired the argument. So if you really want to hear a decent argument...
Click to expand...

I was wanting to hear a decent argument from one. I don't understand how a person who holds to full inerrancy can explain away some of those texts. I once thought that this could be done and I just trusted that because the PC-USA had female pastors, but I'm convinced that scripture teaches only men should be shepherds of the flock. I have heard those in the PC-USA and ELCA go for a while with similar arguments as given above by some, but it always seems to end for them taking refuge in their view that the bible is "authoritative but not inerrant"...so they in the end claim that those verses aren't really part of scripture or that Paul didn't even write them.
 
I'm just thankful for the clarity of Scripture and that gender roles are rooted in creation rather than culture.
 
Galatians 3:28 is one verse usually mentioned, but also Acts 2:17 (" your sons and your daughters shall prophesy"). I saw both of these mentioned by a male pastor at from a liberal Baptist church in Greenville, SC, in a letter to the editor of the newspaper (which I felt obliged to reply to :D ). Interestingly, some time later I saw where these were gleaned from a book written to justify the practice; D.A. Carson mentions the verses and shows why they are off in Exegetical Fallacies.

BTW, I appreciate the excellent grammar displayed in the title of this thread! :up:
 
Galatians 3

23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
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The Gospel in the Old Testament is grace through faith in Christ, as it is in the New Testament to Jew and Gentile, men and women... the same to all whom God would redeem.

(Has absolutely nothing to do with women exercising ecclesiastical authority over men.)
 
With the strong emphasis upon egalitarianism in the academy, it is not unusual for otherwise conservative to VERY conservative profs to advocate for women in "non traditional" roles. Some groups ordain any full time staff person of either gender, others only ordain the sr. pastor/lead pastor/sr. minister/solo pastor. In groups that ordain only the preaching pastor, the tendency is for inerrantists of various traditions to oppose the ordination of women. However, some inerrantists are happy to have women in other full time staff roles (e.g., Christian education, children's ministry, women's ministries). For them, since the staffer does not "exercise authority" they see it as acceptable.

At the beginning of the evangelical egalitarian era in the 1970s, a woman who had published in the Westminster Journal of Theology wrote a book typologizing views for the role of women in the church. Part of what she said included the following options:

* Yes authority, yes teaching
* No authority, yes teaching
* No authority, no teaching

The first view is the "evangelical" egalitarian. Here ordination is encouraged as a "right" of biblically qualified candidates regardless of gender. The third probably represents most PBers and denies the appropriateness of women to be ordained or to teach in the church. Those holding to the second view would argue against ordination, but permit women roles of teaching, preaching, and authoring theological works.

My wife has been a "career" Christian educator who has served full time on church staffs (in Chr. ed and children's ministry) for more than two decades. She is NOT ordained (by her own choice since our denomination would have ordained her) and views 1 Tim 2 as contradicting the "evangelical feminists." Whenever she hears of another pontification by a "female pastor," she shakes her head and moans "Paul was right."

In my limited experience, the general evangelical arguments for ordaining women reduce to a limited number of trajectories:
* Paul was wrong in 1 Tim, we are free to go in a different direction (Paul K. Jewett, Westminster grad).
* Paul was dealing with a social situation that prevailed in the Ephesian church and the prohibition can be separated from the transculturally binding principle.
* Redemptive-movement hermeneutics (cf. Webb, Slaves, Women, and Homosexuals) argues that the Bible captures an earlier stage in the unfolding story of God's redemptive purposes. We can expect the Spirit to "lead us" beyond some of the specific teachings of the Bible that were appropriate in their own time.

I find these arguments flawed, wrong-headed, and dangerous. The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (CBMW) where Ligon Duncan is chairman of the board has produced some great materials, many of them available for free download on the subject.

THE expert (at least on the PB) on this topic is our own Lane Keister (Greenbaggins).
 
I do not have a biblical reason but I do know I have a good friend in Africa that "allows" ladies pastors because there are simply no men to do the job.
 
DMcFadden
Those holding to the second view would argue against ordination, but permit women roles of teaching, preaching, and authoring theological works.
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My understanding of the biblical principles is women can teach other women and can teach young children, in a lay capacity. But not be ordained to office, which are qualified explicitly and by analogy from the priority of creation to male leadership. Nor teach mixed groups of adults. Nor authoritatively proclaim as part of worship by reading Scripture during public worship or exhorting from it, as part of music or in any form during corporate worship.

All that to say that what is so damaging about your #2 is that it devalues ordination, and the offices of the church.

This is the argumentation being used in a few places in reformed circles with the effect of devaluing male leadership, ordination, and church office and replacing it with ambiguity, relativity and confusion.

The witness of church history is this was not confused historically. It's just a symptom of the blindness of sin- each man doing what is right in his own eyes.:2cents:
 
My understanding of the biblical principles is women can teach other women and can teach young children, in a lay capacity.

I hope you guys all focus on the need for this. Yeah women should not be ordained, but shepherds are supposed to provide for the needs of the flock, and that includes young women. I spent most of my early Christian life, and as a new mother, with almost no older woman to talk to or learn from except for one nice aunt. I had loads of peer friends, but we all came from the great revival of the Jesus movement and older women were few and far between. As an avid reader I had help from books, but many women just don't read much.

I have known so many women who are/were depressed, molested by relatives while teens or younger, girls with abortions in their past, gals with critical controlling husbands or silent neglecting husbands, ladies with so many problems. Today, God has raised up such wonderful helpful resources from places like CCEF, Peacemakers, etc, to help people deal with emotional and relational problems in a biblical way. And does the lady who is having flashbacks of being raped when she lies with hubby, and dealing with the searing feelings of shame and pain and rage, really need to go talk to male elders about what happens when she gets physically aroused? Huh? I am not making up some fringe hypothetical situation, they say 1/4- 1/3 of women in America have been molested, and many more were promiscuous before salvation. I know these people and their marriages are a MESS.

Is your church ready for a revival, when people from this gutter of a culture get saved, with all the baggage they will have? Are you doing something- major somethings- to help older women minister to the younger?

I know you guys here have beautiful caring hearts for the church and for pure doctrine. But if you teach (correctly) against female leadership, without seriously considering how you can facilitate older women ministering to younger women, then the women in your churches may feel lonely and longing for help that isn't there. At the very least get in good DVD and CD materials. Pay the way for women to go to conferences like CCEF where the subject applies (they've had them recently on addiction, worry, etc). Make a well trained female biblical counselor available (for free, and it will probably cost the deacons fund a mint). Make sure that their women's meetings focus on good doctrine, and I don't mean Beth Moore. Have the guts to tell them that the best bible study materials out there are by men, and if they want to get together and study doctrine (not related to kids & marriage) it doesn't have to be a woman they listen to or read, generally the men's materials are far better (you might get some real flack on this one, ha. I've gotten it too! So what, it is true. Stand your ground even if they give you those silent witchy vibes back.)

If you want to fight the strong minded women out there who suck younger women into their spiderweb, the way to do it is to provide so well for the younger women that they don't go wandering.
 
If I was going to argue for woman pastors I would use 1 Timothy 2:11
Let a woman LEARN quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
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I would emphasize the word "learn", explaining that this is a very radical and game changing signal of the progressiveness that Christianity was bringing in contrast to Judaism. It was forbidden for a woman to learn the scriptures and their interpretation but now, Christ was introducing 'new wine skins' and an effervescent movement. Why would a woman be allowed to learn and interpret scripture if she would never use it to teach? As soon as the education of the woman was complete, it would be foolish to 'hide her light under a bushel'. Paul's temporary ban against women as teachers would be removed as they demonstrated an ecclesiastical and Biblical fitness.

I also would limit the pastorate to women whose husbands can play the piano or organ but I can't back it up from scripture.

{This post is for entertainment purposes only and in no way is an actual endorsement of woman pastors. No part of this post can be copied or published without the expressed written consent of the commissioner of baseball.}
 
DD2009 said:
Is there a bible believeing church that has female pastors just by sheer error? If there is, how do they scripturally justify it?
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You will find that a variety of solid "bible believing" churches have female pastors. Denominationally they range from Pentacostals through Baptists and Evangelical Anglicans to perhaps some Presbyterians...

Although I do not now believe in women in unrestricted teaching ministries(female pastors), I came to that conclusion after been born again in and involved for over a decade with churches in all the above denominations (save Presbyterian) that have had female pastors. Consequently, I think I understand the arguments egalitarians derive from Scripture as the advocates of female pastors would present them. And in my case, alll but one of these (local) churches were either 4 or 5point Calvinist in soteriology so they were reasonably, if not absolutely "bible believing." Ironically, I fist came to realize the egalitarian view I had known from the new birth had significant problems in the most unexpected of places; I was doing a course assignment on a relevant text in an Exegesis class taught by the very determined egalitarian advocate Gordon Fee!

In reading this thread to post 28, I saw only one presentation of the "female pastors" position that would be recognizable to anyone in leadership in the churches that I was in, or the broader movements of which those churches were representative. And that one was incomplete. What I saw in the rest of the thread was superficial dismissals that show no apparent knowledge of how the vast majority of egalitarians in Evangelicalism justify the practice.

That's a concern, because if the knowlege of the egalitarian case is no deeper than what I have seen here, then those who encounter egalitarians whith those arguments will be far more likely to confirm egalitarians in their prejudices, then help them understand the shortcomings of the egalitarian case.

It is, for example, a simplistic and arrogant sounding condescension to dismiss some of the cases made for the practice as "twist Scripture like a pretzel and ignore the full counsel on the topic." The egalitarians may be wrong, but this issue is one where Paul, in particular, has written some things that are truly "hard to be understood" and mistakes can happen without twisting Scripture or ignoring its full counsel.

In my experience, it is only when the strong side of the egalitarian case is fully acknowledged that its weak side can be successfully addressed.

If anyone would like me to present a condensed version of the egalitarian position solely to help those who seek to help others wrestle with the matter, and if the moderators will promise not to conclude that I am arguing for female pastors by so doing, I will post a detailed view of how Evangelical egalitarians attempt to justify the practice.
 
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