Evangelism & Church Office

[thbslawson]

"We're called to evangelize, so we can be pastors"

Interesting. They have a point. If all Christian individuals believe it is their duty/calling to "evangelize," -that is, take up the duty which is given to ministers so called, examined, ordained, and commissioned, Scripturally speaking- then female pastoralhood doesn't seem to be able to be defended against. In other words, if we're going to ignore the Scriptural defintions of "evangelism," and to whom this calling is appointed, it seems only consistent also to ignore the Scriptural prohibition of women taking up church office. These are -except the Lord intervene- the inevitable results of egalitarianism and the depreciation of calling.

I'm in no way defending women pastors, but I'd have to disagree that evangelization belongs only to the ordained, especially in light of Acts 8:1-4. There is a sense in which all Chriatians are called to bear witness, and this includes words.

 

[toddpedlar]

"We're called to evangelize, so we can be pastors"

Interesting. They have a point. If all Christian individuals believe it is their duty/calling to "evangelize," -that is, take up the duty which is given to ministers so called, examined, ordained, and commissioned, Scripturally speaking- then female pastoralhood doesn't seem to be able to be defended against. In other words, if we're going to ignore the Scriptural defintions of "evangelism," and to whom this calling is appointed, it seems only consistent also to ignore the Scriptural prohibition of women taking up church office. These are -except the Lord intervene- the inevitable results of egalitarianism and the depreciation of calling.

I'm in no way defending women pastors, but I'd have to disagree that evangelization belongs only to the ordained, especially in light of Acts 8:1-4. There is a sense in which all Chriatians are called to bear witness, and this includes words.

There is a very great difference between the command to be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within us, and going out to evangelize, which is the purview of only some specifically given to the church, a la Ephesians 4. ALL are to do the one... SOME are to do the other. In our age we have conflated these things badly.

 

[thbslawson]

"We're called to evangelize, so we can be pastors"

Interesting. They have a point. If all Christian individuals believe it is their duty/calling to "evangelize," -that is, take up the duty which is given to ministers so called, examined, ordained, and commissioned, Scripturally speaking- then female pastoralhood doesn't seem to be able to be defended against. In other words, if we're going to ignore the Scriptural defintions of "evangelism," and to whom this calling is appointed, it seems only consistent also to ignore the Scriptural prohibition of women taking up church office. These are -except the Lord intervene- the inevitable results of egalitarianism and the depreciation of calling.

I'm in no way defending women pastors, but I'd have to disagree that evangelization belongs only to the ordained, especially in light of Acts 8:1-4. There is a sense in which all Chriatians are called to bear witness, and this includes words.

There is a very great difference between the command to be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within us, and going out to evangelize, which is the purview of only some specifically given to the church, a la Ephesians 4. ALL are to do the one... SOME are to do the other. In our age we have conflated these things badly.

But the problem is that it's not what the text says in Acts 8:1-4.

And Saul approved of his execution.
And there arose on that day a great persecution against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2 Devout men buried Stephen and made great lamentation over him. 3 But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison.
4 Now those who were scattered went about preaching the word.

1. There was persecution which led to the church being scattered.
2. The Apostles were NOT scattered.
3. Those who were scattered (NOT apostles) went about "preaching" euaggelizō the word.

This is not merely making a defense, or being ready (which I believe we're to do also), but an active proclamation of Christ.

 

[toddpedlar]

"We're called to evangelize, so we can be pastors"

Interesting. They have a point. If all Christian individuals believe it is their duty/calling to "evangelize," -that is, take up the duty which is given to ministers so called, examined, ordained, and commissioned, Scripturally speaking- then female pastoralhood doesn't seem to be able to be defended against. In other words, if we're going to ignore the Scriptural defintions of "evangelism," and to whom this calling is appointed, it seems only consistent also to ignore the Scriptural prohibition of women taking up church office. These are -except the Lord intervene- the inevitable results of egalitarianism and the depreciation of calling.

I'm in no way defending women pastors, but I'd have to disagree that evangelization belongs only to the ordained, especially in light of Acts 8:1-4. There is a sense in which all Chriatians are called to bear witness, and this includes words.

There is a very great difference between the command to be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within us, and going out to evangelize, which is the purview of only some specifically given to the church, a la Ephesians 4. ALL are to do the one... SOME are to do the other. In our age we have conflated these things badly.

But the problem is that it's not what the text says in Acts 8:1-4.

And Saul approved of his execution.
And there arose on that day a great persecution against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2 Devout men buried Stephen and made great lamentation over him. 3 But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison.
4 Now those who were scattered went about preaching the word.

1. There was persecution which led to the church being scattered.
2. The Apostles were NOT scattered.
3. Those who were scattered (NOT apostles) went about "preaching" euaggelizō the word.

This is not merely making a defense, or being ready (which I believe we're to do also), but an active proclamation of Christ.

As Joshua noted, perhaps this is better split off into a different thread. A few comments, and if we go to a different thread, this can be part of our discussion.

1. The principal difficulty with using Acts 8:1-4 to defend "every member evangelism" is first and foremost an example of making a narrative passage prescriptive. You can't take mere narration of an event like this into a prescription for every member in the church. Narrative is not Command.

2. Secondly, this passage, even if it could be used as prescription, is not a universal prescription. It would be perfectly correct and faithful to say "and those that were scattered preached the word" when only some of those in every scattered group were actually doing the preaching.

3. Third, I don't see how, if you use this passage to defend "every member evangelism" you can avoid an argument for "every member preaching". What is in view in this passage is not simply evangelism, it's PREACHING the word - using the same phrase as Paul does when advising Timothy. This passage, if it argues for "every member evangelism" (by which I think you mean "every member seeking to convert their neighbors") , then it argues clearly for "Every member taking the role of pastor, alongside Timothy, and preaching the word". That cannot be.

4. Finally, and this circles back to the reason you can't use narrative to prescribe particular actions in the church... to argue for "every member evangelism" makes hash of the clearer statements in Scripture that speak of those particularly called to evangelism (which is not all.. and if you're not called to it, it isn't your proper role).

 

[thbslawson]

"We're called to evangelize, so we can be pastors"

Interesting. They have a point. If all Christian individuals believe it is their duty/calling to "evangelize," -that is, take up the duty which is given to ministers so called, examined, ordained, and commissioned, Scripturally speaking- then female pastoralhood doesn't seem to be able to be defended against. In other words, if we're going to ignore the Scriptural defintions of "evangelism," and to whom this calling is appointed, it seems only consistent also to ignore the Scriptural prohibition of women taking up church office. These are -except the Lord intervene- the inevitable results of egalitarianism and the depreciation of calling.

I'm in no way defending women pastors, but I'd have to disagree that evangelization belongs only to the ordained, especially in light of Acts 8:1-4. There is a sense in which all Chriatians are called to bear witness, and this includes words.

There is a very great difference between the command to be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within us, and going out to evangelize, which is the purview of only some specifically given to the church, a la Ephesians 4. ALL are to do the one... SOME are to do the other. In our age we have conflated these things badly.

But the problem is that it's not what the text says in Acts 8:1-4.

And Saul approved of his execution.
And there arose on that day a great persecution against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2 Devout men buried Stephen and made great lamentation over him. 3 But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison.
4 Now those who were scattered went about preaching the word.

1. There was persecution which led to the church being scattered.
2. The Apostles were NOT scattered.
3. Those who were scattered (NOT apostles) went about "preaching" euaggelizō the word.

This is not merely making a defense, or being ready (which I believe we're to do also), but an active proclamation of Christ.

As Joshua noted, perhaps this is better split off into a different thread. A few comments, and if we go to a different thread, this can be part of our discussion.

1. The principal difficulty with using Acts 8:1-4 to defend "every member evangelism" is first and foremost an example of making a narrative passage prescriptive. You can't take mere narration of an event like this into a prescription for every member in the church. Narrative is not Command.

2. Secondly, this passage, even if it could be used as prescription, is not a universal prescription. It would be perfectly correct and faithful to say "and those that were scattered preached the word" when only some of those in every scattered group were actually doing the preaching.

3. Third, I don't see how, if you use this passage to defend "every member evangelism" you can avoid an argument for "every member preaching". What is in view in this passage is not simply evangelism, it's PREACHING the word - using the same phrase as Paul does when advising Timothy. This passage, if it argues for "every member evangelism" (by which I think you mean "every member seeking to convert their neighbors") , then it argues clearly for "Every member taking the role of pastor, alongside Timothy, and preaching the word". That cannot be.

4. Finally, and this circles back to the reason you can't use narrative to prescribe particular actions in the church... to argue for "every member evangelism" makes hash of the clearer statements in Scripture that speak of those particularly called to evangelism (which is not all.. and if you're not called to it, it isn't your proper role).

Todd, I'd respond, but I've been told by Josh that this is off topic, therefore I will refrain. I'm content on where I stand on the subject, and believe it is Scriptural. I'll be happy to discuss it with you wish to do it in another venue.

 

[thbslawson]

To echo Mr. Pedlar's well-expressed thoughts, if we are to take into account what the whole of the Scriptures teach pertaining to preaching, church office, and evangelism as it is properly and officially defined, then we must assume that if every man, woman, and child went around apreachin' then they did so against God's prescription. Of course, I do not believe that's what the passage is saying at all. Those who did the preaching would have been called, vetted, and commissioned thereunto, unless we're going to impute to them an act of disregarding God's order.

Joshua, I see a difference here between a church office and all Christians being called to "evangelize". I do believe in the proper function of church offices, and that those offices have specific functions and duties to which one is called and ordained. For an elder, this is shepherding the flock and the regular preaching and teaching of the word in an official capacity. I believe in the ordained office of deacon, where one is called and ordained to carry out other duties so that the elders may be devoted to teaching and preaching. But this does not mean that those in the church who do not hold offices cannot be involved in activities that overlap these ordained offices. Non-deacons may still help with diaconal duties of simply helping orphans and widows, caring for the sick, etc. This doesn't replace the office of deacon, nor usurp it, it simply echoes it. Likewise wise and mature Christians who do not hold the office of elder may still give wise counsel, mentor others and perform functions in their daily lives that in some way reflect some of what an Elder does.

I believe Acts 8, while not prescriptive, is indeed descriptive of a common type of "evangelization" euaggelizō in which a believer proclaims "good news", not as an ordained minister, but as one who has been cleansed and made whole by Christ, much in the same way that those whom Jesus healed went and told people what he had done for them. The passage clearly reads that those who were scattered were "not apostles" and that they went about "preaching." I understand the argument from the rest of Scripture that you apply to this passage to get your interpretation, but I believe it's far too narrow, and could be restricting the text to something that it's not saying. The only two options you offer is that they those who went about were either "called, vetted and commissioned" or that they were disregarding God's order. Yet another option might be that the "preaching" they were doing was simply that of sharing good news, which can indeed be a proper understanding of the word in context.

So what I'm advocating is not that every believer should be a "preacher" in the capacity of an elder, but that every believer should and ought to frequently tell the "good news" of what Christ has done for him.

 

[thbslawson]

But one must show where evangelism, in the Scriptures, is the proper function of every Christian without distinction. One must also show where evangelism is ever defined as or equated with telling others what Christ has done for us, or speaking a word in season, or giving a defense for the hope we have, etc. The Scriptures have no such definition. Whatever those things are (and I acknowledge they are for Christians to perform), they are not evangelism as defined by the Scriptures. The proclamation of the Word of God in its official capacity is to be carried out by ministers who have been called thereunto, subsequently examined, ordained, and commissioned. Romans 10 makes this very clear, as well.

It appears then our disagreement, then, is over the use of the word "evangelize" or "evangelization" correct? Would you agree that believers should share with others what Christ has done for them?

 

[Andres]

So what I'm advocating is not that every believer should be a "preacher" in the capacity of an elder, but that every believer should and ought to frequently tell the "good news" of what Christ has done for him.

Thomas, when you say that a believer "ought to frequently tell the 'good news' of what Christ has done for him", what do you mean by this? To whom do I tell this good news? How do I tell it? The answers to these questions are what distinguishes witnessing from the ordained office of evangelist in my opinion.

For years, I lived under almost a constant guilt because I was under the impression that it was my duty to proclaim the gospel to everyone that I met. I mean that literally. I spent hours handing out tracts in an attempt to assauge my guilt of not sharing the gospel with the world. I think this guilt and faulty thinking was a direct result of the conflated view of witnessing and evangelizing that Josh and Todd have shared.

 

[KMK]

For years, I lived under almost a constant guilt because I was under the impression that it was my duty to proclaim the gospel to everyone that I met. I mean that literally. I spent hours handing out tracts in an attempt to assauge my guilt of not sharing the gospel with the world. I think this guilt and faulty thinking was a direct result of the conflated view of witnessing and evangelizing that Josh and Todd have shared.

Many are in this position, unfortunately. Some have even made 'sharing the gospel' more important than following His commandments.

The Reformed believe there is an official 'ministry of the Word' which is used by the Lord to effectually call His lost sheep into the fold.

LBC Chapter 26:

Paragraph 4. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner...


Paragraph 5. In the execution of this power wherewith he is so intrusted, the Lord Jesus calls out of the world unto himself, through the ministry of his word, by his Spirit, those that are given unto him by his Father,9 that they may walk before him in all the ways of obedience, which he prescribes to them in his word.10 Those thus called, he commands to walk together in particular societies, or churches, for their mutual edification, and the due performance of that public worship, which he requires of them in the world.

Paragraph 7. To each of these churches therefore gathered, according to his mind declared in his word, he has given all that power and authority, which is in any way needful for their carrying on that order in worship and discipline, which he has instituted for them to observe; with commands and rules for the due and right exerting, and executing of that power. (What power? The power of calling, institution, and order.)

Paragraph 8. A particular church, gathered and completely organized according to the mind of Christ, consists of officers and members; and the officers appointed by Christ to be chosen and set apart by the church (so called and gathered), for the peculiar administration of ordinances, and execution of power or duty... (Again, what power? The power of calling, institution, and order.)

Paragraph 9. The way appointed by Christ for the calling of any person, fitted and gifted by the Holy Spirit, unto the office of bishop or elder in a church, is, that he be chosen thereunto by the common suffrage of the church itself...

Paragraph 10. The work of pastors being constantly to attend the service of Christ, in his churches, in the ministry of the word and prayer... (Why should they attend the churches in 'the ministry of the word'? Because that is where the power of calling lies.)

If you follow the flow of chapter 26, you see that 'the ministry of the word' is that which, when combined with the power of the HS, is effectual for calling the lost and this 'ministry of the word' is entrusted only to those who are fitted and gifted and approved by the church.

However, the Reformed also believe that others who are not officers can wield the power of the ministry of the word, if they are also called and approved by the church.

Paragraph 11. Although it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches, to be instant in preaching the word, by way of office, yet the work of preaching the word is not so peculiarly confined to them but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it, and approved and called by the church, may and ought to perform it.

Others who are not office bearers may minister the word, but only through the calling and approval of the church. Those who have not been called or approved by the church to be 'ministers of the word' are encouraged to 'be ready to give every man an answer' etc, but that should not be equated with the 'ministry of the word'.

Unfortunately, the word 'evangelize' is used so broadly it has lost all meaning.