Do we need another reformation?

[Ajay]

Everywhere people are celebrating 500th years of reformation. My friend asked me , Do we need another reformation? I also want to ask my PB friends, Really what are the achievements of the 16th century Protestant reformation? Why we need another reformation?. Sorry if I post in wrong place.


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[Ask Mr. Religion]

Thread moved.

And, yes, we do.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/sproul1.html

 

[BG]

I believe our greatest need is revival not reformation. It’s not that we don’t have access to the truth today it’s that we’re not interested in it.
we do not read the Bible.
We do not fellowship.
We do not pray.
We do not conduct discipleship programs.
We do not evangelize.
We do not practice hospitality.
Very few ministers know how to preach.
Very few ministers know how to shepherd the flock even worse many have no desire to shepherd the flock.

We have an embarrassment of riches at our fingertips today. I am just a stupid house painter who doesn’t know how to spell or punctuate and yet I have more theological resources on my iPhone and iPad then Calvin and Luther could’ve ever dreamed possible and The resources are instantaneous I don’t even have to flip a page I just talk to my iPhone and it finds the info for me. I’m not even typing this post I’m just talking to my phone.

We don’t need reformation we need revival we need to fall on our faces and cry out to God for ourselves for our children for our churches and for our nation and repent of our failure to use the resources he has laid at our feet.

 

[Scott Bushey]

I agree with Bill. It is not an issue of 'another reformation', but an issue of sticking to what the reformed held dear.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

I agree; but if we do need another Reformation it will not be led by men who find it acceptable to force images on people in places of worship or go out on the links and play a round on Lord's Day afternoons.

I agree with Bill. It is not an issue of 'another reformation', but an issue of sticking to what the reformed held dear.

 

[Ed Walsh]

I believe our greatest need is revival.

Oh, that thou wouldest rend the heavens,
O Jesus, to whom all power is given.
And come now to your sleeping church,

split asunder O so riven.​

that thou wouldest come down,
that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,​

Turn thou us unto thee, O Lord,

and we shall be turned again​

Renew our days as of old,

and to us your presence send.​

I had fainted, unless I had believed to see

the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.​

Turn us again, O Lord God of hosts,

cause thy face to shine;
and we shall be saved and once again be wholly thine.​

Turn us, O God of our salvation,

and cause thine anger toward us to cease.​

Wilt thou be angry with us forever?
Wilt thou draw out thine anger to all generations?
Wilt thou not revive us again:

that thy people may rejoice in thee?
​

And they shall build the old wastes,

they shall raise up the former desolations,
and they shall repair the waste cities,
the desolations of many generations.​

O Lord, I have heard thy speech,

and was afraid: O Lord,
revive thy work in the midst of the years,
in the midst of the years make known;
in wrath remember mercy.
​

I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem,

which shall never hold their peace day nor night:
ye that make mention of the Lord, keep not silence,​

And give him no rest,

till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.​

Matthew 28:18; Isaiah 61:4; Lamentations 5:21 Psalms 27:13; Psalms 80:19; Psalm 85:4-6; Habakkuk 3:2; Isaiah 62:6-7
​

 

[Ajay]

So you people are telling that, the issues the church is facing in this present generation are the same issues faced by the church in 16th century.

Did reformers deals with the issues like speaking in tongues and the revival of spiritual gifts.
Evolution, mysticism. KJV onlyism.The most confusion thing is worship. Did reformers set the principles, what manner we need to worship God on every Sunday? Did the church is still holding to sola scripture as reformers taught?


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[Scott Bushey]

Ajay,
The issues that the reformed faced in their age and how they dealt with it is drawn out in the Westminster confession and subordinate documents they created. if the church would just stand fast with the work that was done for us many years ago, we would have a lot less problems. Problems arise when we move away from the WCF.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I agree with Bill. It is not an issue of 'another reformation', but an issue of sticking to what the reformed held dear.

One could have said something similar in the middle ages, "We don't need a reformation, we just need to stick to what the Early Church held dear."

Of course, the process of jettisoning those things that have been added over the years, and going back to that which has been rejected or forgotten... well, that's a reformation.

 

[Romans922]

Reformation? No. We need Biblical Revival.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

So you people are telling that, the issues the church is facing in this present generation are the same issues faced by the church in 16th century.

Somewhat, but also, no. The Reformation was about going back to the original sources of Scripture over the oppression of the Papists and hiding the Gospel. Yes, we always need to be "reformed" or "sanctified" in this sense (Lev. 26:23) but we don't need the same kind of Reformation. We have already uncovered the Gospel, so to speak. You can buy a bible in any Walmart, or even in many convenience stores. The Bible is what the Reformation recovered, thus, the Gospel. We need a reformation like Josiah's. Come into contact with the Scripture, read it all, understand what it is saying, heartily REPENT, and radically transform the way "Christianity" is done in the US. (2 Kings 22-23).

This will start in two phases and in two areas if the church wants to be successful in reforming for the Glory of Christ: 1) Personally - i.e. personally and in families. And 2) from the top down - which is by ministers with a hearty conviction for the truth.

Did reformers deals with the issues like speaking in tongues and the revival of spiritual gifts.Evolution, mysticism. KJV onlyism.

Yes, the Reformers dealt with much of the same things that "we deal with" today in terms of deviancy. Charismania was a Montanist outflowing that in turn affecting various fringe groups during the Reformation. Mysticism - yes, tons of it. KJV only, somewhat, in the sense that the Roman Catholic Church required the priests to deal exclusively with the Latin text. Ad Fontes, going back to the sources, was the cry of the Reformation.

The most confusion thing is worship. Did reformers set the principles, what manner we need to worship God on every Sunday? Did the church is still holding to sola scripture as reformers taught?

Any cursory reading of any of the reformers, and certainly the later Puritans, dealt extensively with right worship. Calvin's Necessity of Reforming the Church is a classic work.

 

[jwright82]

I think the question needs some clarification. During the Reformation there was one church, the Eastern Orthodox not withstanding, to deal with. Nowadays there is no one church to reform. So you could talk about reforming a denomination or something like that. But there's many different churches each with the right to believe whatever they want. So unless we want to "force" a state church, which I don't agree with. The question needs some clarification. I like the word "revival" that has been suggested.

 

[Cymro]

Though I write from what rightly or wrongly was called the “land of Revival,” I would be cautious in placing the preference for Revival above Reformation. If there were to be the opening of the windows of heaven and the subsequent reaping of a great harvest, I fear that the churches are in such a theological disarray and worship so diverse in content and biblically erroneous, that new born souls would be strangled at birth. What was the Reformation , but the recovery of the truth and it’s proclamation in authority and power, so that the saved were then “built up upon the most holy faith.” The Reformation was a Revival, with the emphasis on the integrity, veracity and inspiration of the Scriptures, and the great doctrinal principles therefrom. We need to pray that the Lord would raise up labourers, men after His own heart who would preach the Christ of the Reformers and not a diluted imitation.

 

[deathtolife]

Appreciate the comments. The have stirred my thoughts. The Lord bless you brethren.

Yes we need reformation and yes we need revival. Does there need to be a sharp distinction made? I am not sure it is an either/or distinction. There may be reason to make such a distinction.

I have found that some revival historians do not make a significant distinction between reformation and revival as some do. They see reformation as an added dimension to revival. I have heard some say that many revivals have not lasted as long as they should have because they were not accompanied by reformation. Others see the necessity of reformation before revival. (Just throwing that out there.)

I get the impression that among many in the reformed (and other circles) we have become revival ignorant or have developed a revival "phobia" of sorts. I do not count myself without guilt in this regard. But I believe it must change and change quickly. As Horatius Bonar said:

"Many a wondrous scene has been witnessed from the day of Pentecost downwards to our own day. What better deserves the attention and the study of the believer than the record of these outpourings of the Spirit? Besides the interest that cleaves to them, there is much to be learned from them by the Church. To see how God has been working, and to observe the means and instruments by which He has carried on His work, cannot fail to be profitable and quickening. It makes us sensible of our own short comings, and it points out the way by which the blessing may be cured."

Whether it is reformation, revival or a combination thereof, we need God, and we need Him to do it! And how we need Him so. Yes, Cymro, may God raise up labourers.

I read this some time ago. I thought it would be good to share:

"There is a very precious sense in which revival is literally "GOD in the midst of His people." His manifest presence produces all that is desirable in revival. The absence of His manifest presence accounts for all that is undesirable during the seasons of moral and spiritual decline that precede revivals.

Revival is a time when heaven comes closer to earth than at any other time in the lives of men and women. If one considers the greatest attraction of heaven, is it golden streets? Is it the tree of life? Is it the presence of angels? Is it fellowship with other redeemed? NO! The greatest allure of heaven is the absolutely unbroken presence of God." (Rev. Richard Owen Roberts)

 

[jwright82]

This thread reminds me of a conversation I had many years ago with a friend who was going to a presbyterian church and became convinced that infant baptism was unbiblical. He wanted to "reform" his church and asked what I thought. I said "no, go to a church down the street that teaches what you believe". I pointed out that the Reformers didn't have that luxury, we do.

Now I'm not saying there isn't a time or a place to fight. Look at Machen, but he was fighting a particular denomination and institution thus giving his "reformation" or "revival" a context. So I guess I misunderstood the question because my initial thought was reform what? I just think all reformations in history had a context.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Isn't that term "manifest presence" and the theology that seems to go with it problematic? In my experience it seems to go along with revivalism and charismaticism.

The revival seen in the Bible is a heartfelt recovery of/return to God's law. I think Dr. McMahon above expressed well how revival and reformation is in two phases: personally and in families and from "the top down" in the Church- faithful ministers.


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[deathtolife]

Isn't that term "manifest presence" and the theology that seems to go with it problematic? In my experience it seems to go along with revivalism and charismaticism.

The revival seen in the Bible is a heartfelt recovery of/return to God's law. I think Dr. McMahon above expressed well how revival and reformation is in two phases: personally and in families and from "the top down" in the Church- faithful ministers.


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I understand your concern, and it is a legitimate concern. I hope that quote does not present Richard Owen Roberts as one who promotes such things. He has always taught and promoted a God exalting, Christ centered, and word focused view of revival.

Regardless of our experience of how words have been hijacked, I believe we can speak of the presence of God in various ways- as the Bible does. Rev. Roberts clarifies here at 3:50:

 

[Jeri Tanner]

I don't have time to interact much about it now, but wanted to ask if Rev. Roberts emphasizes the need to return to a regulative principle of worship as a (or the) most vital aspect of reformation. The worship of the church must be reformed (I think this is spoken to by Calvin in the resource posted above).


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[Ed Walsh]

I have uploaded a PDF of Jonathan Edwards' account of the revival in Northampton and neighboring towns about 1735. It is a very familiar piece, but I am posting it for those who may never have read it.

 

[Steve Curtis]

We need a reformation like Josiah's. Come into contact with the Scripture, read it all, understand what it is saying, heartily REPENT, and radically transform the way "Christianity" is done in the US. (2 Kings 22-23).

Amen. Though as the OP is not from the
US, we need to be conscious of the need for such a "reformation" in the global church.

 

[Ed Walsh]

We do not read the Bible.
We do not fellowship.
We do not pray.
We do not conduct discipleship programs.
We do not evangelize.

Here's a hint or two that has helped me in praying really big prayers.

First - In one respect there are no prayers that are too big to pray, for Paul says that [God] "is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us." (Ephesians 3:20)

Second - Prayer really can change things that we may consider already written in stone. Worldwide revival and reformation are among those really big things that I pray for every day.

Jesus prophesied of the destruction of Jerusalem and gave the following warning to his disciples. The day and hour were set and known only to God.

Luke 21:20-22 (KJV)
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Now take a look at this stunning verse below.

Matthew 24:20 (KJV)
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Jesus told them that day of the week might be altered; that even the season of the year is subject to change as a result of prayer.

But, you might ask, "How can we be sure that this prayer for reformation is God's will?"

Two proofs:

First - Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.

Second - John 17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Do you think Jesus prayer will be answered? I consider Jesus' prayers as prophecies for God had already promised him the world. (Psalm 2 and many other places)

I am convinced that this unity or oneness applies not only to the invisible church but also the visable church, for this oneness will be so convincingly demonstrated that even the unbelievers (the world) would believe that God has indeed sent his son into the world.

So you can pray with confidence and faith that you will be heard and eventually answered.

Can I help?
In post #3 BG (Bill G) said among other things that, "We do not read the Bible. We do not pray. We do not evangelize. If this describes you to an extent, you could send me a private message, and I will share how I try to overcome these shortcomings and offer some encouragement in the hope of helping you.

Ed

 

[Jeri Tanner]

I have uploaded a PDF of Jonathan Edwards' account of the revival in Northampton and neighboring towns about 1735. It is a very familiar piece, but I am posting it for those who may never have read it.

The 1st Great Awakening is interesting to look back at. One of the most interesting things to me is that rather than leading to a recovery of Reformation principles, it by and large turned out to be an embracing of new practices, such as hymnody replacing Psalmody, and seemed to open the way for even more new practice in the areas of worship and ecclesiology. Edwards' testimony, and the testimony of other godly men, was that there seemed to be many solid conversions during this time, which is wonderful. Yet, the events as they happened, and the interpretations of what had happened, paved the way for the soon-to-follow revivalism and pentecostalism.

I'm reminded of the "Jesus People" movement of the 60's and 70's. It's considered a true revival by many and seemingly many conversions, but one of the fruits of it was even further deterioration in worship and ecclesiology. Just noting.

 

[KGP]

I read/heard earlier this week (I believe from Carl Truman) that there is no immediate reason for the 95 thesis to gain such interest in the short time it did; apart from God's providence. It was a fairly technical document that don't strike the same tone as that of a manifesto. According to Truman, it's accepted that Luther had lectured publicly on many of the same ideas found in the 95 thesis only a few months prior to his posting it and nobody made much of it.

All that to say that while hearts and minds were ripe to receive reform; it was no machination of men that brought it about.

As has been said prior, let us each pray as Christ has taught us, watch our lives and our doctrine and continually seek to reform ourselves according to Christ.

We might not be ready for reformation yet. We might need a few more Tyndale and Hus type folk, and a few more Jerome of Prague type friends to wet the ground with blood before the stage can truly be set.


And who knows, the next major reformation we experience may be the reformation delivered by the Son of Man upon his return. Haste the day Lord!


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[KGP]

I believe our greatest need is revival not reformation. It’s not that we don’t have access to the truth today it’s that we’re not interested in it.

we do not read the Bible.
We do not fellowship.
We do not pray.
We do not conduct discipleship programs.
We do not evangelize.
We do not practice hospitality.
Very few ministers know how to preach.
Very few ministers know how to shepherd the flock even worse many have no desire to shepherd the flock.

We have an embarrassment of riches at our fingertips today. I am just a stupid house painter who doesn’t know how to spell or punctuate and yet I have more theological resources on my iPhone and iPad then Calvin and Luther could’ve ever dreamed possible and The resources are instantaneous I don’t even have to flip a page I just talk to my iPhone and it finds the info for me. I’m not even typing this post I’m just talking to my phone.

We don’t need reformation we need revival we need to fall on our faces and cry out to God for ourselves for our children for our churches and for our nation and repent of our failure to use the resources he has laid at our feet.

A word on this. Always remember that the true church of God ARE doing those things. Imperfectly, yes of course; but it is happening. In fact these things may be happening more than ever before in many areas of the church. We have much to praise God for in our day.

I caution all to be careful we do not disparage the bride or Christ by careless words. Think of all the charitable words with which Paul encouraged the Corinthians in light of what he could have rightly said otherwise; let's follow in his example as we seek to build up the church!



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[BG]

Kaleb, no one is disparaging the bride of Christ. The Apostle Paul, John the Baptist and Jesus all rebuked the church in their day for very similar things.

A word on this. Always remember that the true church of God ARE doing those things. Imperfectly, yes of course; but it is happening. In fact these things may be happening more than ever before in many areas of the church. We have much to praise God for in our day.

I caution all to be careful we do not disparage the bride or Christ by careless words. Think of all the charitable words with which Paul encouraged the Corinthians in light of what he could have rightly said otherwise; let's follow in his example as we seek to build up the church!



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[Stephen L Smith]

I have uploaded a PDF of Jonathan Edwards' account of the revival in Northampton and neighboring towns about 1735. It is a very familiar piece, but I am posting it for those who may never have read it.

Banner of Truth publish Edwards blessed works on Revival:

1. Jonathan Edwards On Revival https://banneroftruth.org/uk/store/history-biography/jonathan-edwards-on-revival/
2. The Religious Affections https://banneroftruth.org/uk/store/christian-living/the-religious-affections/
3. Thoughts on the New England Revival https://banneroftruth.org/uk/store/history-biography/thoughts-on-the-new-england-revival/
4. One can add to that Dr Lloyd-Jones insightful lecture on Edwards and Revival http://graceonlinelibrary.org/churc...portance-of-revival-by-dr-martyn-lloyd-jones/ Lloyd-Jones said "My advice to you is: Read Jonathan Edwards. Stop going to so many meetings; stop craving for the various forms of entertainment which are so popular in evangelical circles at the present time. Learn to stay at home. Learn to read again, and do not merely read the exciting stories of certain modern people. Go back to something solid and deep and real."

If I may add a personal comment - last week my country elected one of the most godless governments in our nations history. It has left Christians here in New Zealand discouraged. Clearly we need to look up to our sovereign Lord. But I have been encouraging my fellow countrymen to read the greatest theologians of revival - as Edwards was.

 

[jwright82]

Amen. Though as the OP is not from the
US, we need to be conscious of the need for such a "reformation" in the global church.

Amen. Although I have no idea what "reformation" is supposed to mean. Is it a particular church or denomination? Or the church at large? I mean what needs reformation? Context means everything.

 

[KGP]

Kaleb, no one is disparaging the bride of Christ. The Apostle Paul, John the Baptist and Jesus all rebuked the church in their day for very similar things.

Yes they did; but they rebuked specific individuals and congregations for specific issues they were directly privy to. We may lament, and rightly so, the general shortcomings of our generation of believers, but it is presumptuous to make statements like you have made unless you are talking about your own life, your families life, or the life of your congregation which you are intimately aware of.

'we do not read the Bible.
We do not fellowship.
We do not pray.
We do not conduct discipleship programs.
We do not evangelize.
We do not practice hospitality.
Very few ministers know how to preach.
Very few ministers know how to shepherd the flock even worse many have no desire to shepherd the flock.'

All of these statements are presumptuous and unhelpful I think if spoken of in a large context. They are heartfelt assumptions no doubt; and I have made similar statements many many times in the past; but the Lord has since disciplined me to be careful not to make such sweeping statements and they come from emotion instead of firsthand personal knowledge. Let us not bear false witness! It is so easy to become blind to what God is doing right in front of us and be critical of what is not happening everywhere else.

There is more reformed teaching going out now than ever before to all corners of the world. Because of the way knowledge can travel, you have young people from godless families discovering the truth of Christ and going straight into pastoral/evangelism/mission work, I read of a young man who got saved, promptly looked up a place that needed the gospel and moved with his wife to Iceland to start a reformed congregation there; the only one of its kind around. He's been laboring faithfully for several years now and is finally starting to see fruit! God is building and strengthening and adding to his body day by day.

There will always be things to critique about the bride of Christ; there will always be cause for despair of our current condition if we fail to look to the ongoing work of Christ and LOVE the church. Loving the church means bearing all things, believing all things, hoping all things. It is in this attitude of love that our hearts are rekindled for things of the Lord; let us be the reformation and revival we wish to see in the world!

Of course there is a place for criticism and sharp discourse, rebuke. But let it be pointed, specific, illuminating. If you are not having these discussions in person with people in your church, family, etc; then we really have no right to complain too much about the state that the church is in because we have not done our small part, at least that's how I see it.

Perhaps 'disparaging' is the wrong word for your statement. I am just eager to defend the bride of Christ and would encourage everyone to be proactive in prayer and thanksgiving for Christ's ongoing work amongst his people in the world; that we might see more of it with our own eyes, and I've been disciplined by the Lord for making similar statements about the church in the past; I'd spare others from the correction that I received if I can.






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[Steve Curtis]

Amen. Although I have no idea what "reformation" is supposed to mean. Is it a particular church or denomination? Or the church at large? I mean what needs reformation? Context means everything.

The context of my post was the post I quoted:

We need a reformation like Josiah's. Come into contact with the Scripture, read it all, understand what it is saying, heartily REPENT, and radically transform the way "Christianity" is done in the US. (2 Kings 22-23)

I only urged that we not limit the discussion to the American church.

 

[Ed Walsh]

Everywhere people are celebrating 500th years of reformation. My friend asked me, Do we need another reformation?

Psalms 119:126
It is time for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Arminianists, Charismatics, etc. Our pluralistic God-defying government needs change. Some of these views need to be defeated. Others need to reform. Even the Reformed need to reform. What are we to do?

I have been praying for years and years for reformation, but this morning I got it into my head that it is time to act. I can't think of a better resource than the Puritan Board, can you? What better time than the 500th anniversary of the 95 theses? If God used Martin Luther's arguments, which were pretty ordinary by Reformation standards, can he not use even you and me? Anyone have any ideas where to start? One place we must start is where Luther began. We must live a life of repentance. What say ye?