Confessions of Christ?
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Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
That seems a little weird. How can we say that Christ (Jesus) says, "There are three persons in the Godhead; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; these three are one God -- the same in substance, equal in power and glory" when we can be pretty sure He never said these words. Like I said. It seems weird and creepy and will likely be misunderstood by the unlearned.
So says my gut.
On the one hand, I don't have a problem with saying, "Christ says..." followed by something that is a clear and accurate summary/paraphrase of something Christ has said, rather than a direct quote from Scripture (though I would want to be very careful in doing so). On the other hand, I feel uncomfortable doing that with our confessional documents, mostly because I think there's a greater danger there of causing confusion regarding their status relative to Scripture. As a new pastor at a small church (about 1.5 years now), I've already encountered a fair amount of such confusion. And it seems to tend toward actually decreasing respect for our standards. So I just want to be very careful not to add to the confusion.
I appreciate your wisdom and caution! There is a balance that must be maintained for sure!
“That is why Christ adds the warning of Article 28: “Out of it, there is no salvation” “
Or “in the Belic Confession, Christ puts on the believers lips the confession, “my church is a true church”?
How would you respond to those statements?
“That is why Christ adds the warning of Article 28: “Out of it, there is no salvation” “
Or “in the Belic Confession, Christ puts on the believers lips the confession, “my church is a true church”?
How would you respond to those statements?
This language, especially the second one, definitely strikes me as crossing the line. Christ did not speak through our confessional documents, and to say directly that he did is to treat them, intentionally or not, as Scripture. Especially since those examples are neither summaries not paraphrases of things Christ actually said, but rather those things that can be derived by good and necessary consequence, which are true and binding, but different from Christ's own statements.
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
This one is a little different, isn't it?
Probably no one would take the phrase "my Church is a true Church" as literal words of Jesus as though inscripturated. This is obviously a statement of the Church's essential nature as a monolithic structure, with Christ Himself as the Chief Cornerstone.
EDIT: While we're at it, have you ever thought about the hymn, How Firm a Foundation, by Chelsea Moon and The Franz Brothers?
After the first verse, the hymn-writer loses it, through discretion to the wind, and makes up entire conversations in the first person as if Jesus were speaking.
Check it out
1. How firm a foundation, ye saints of the Lord,
is laid for your faith in his excellent word!
What more can he say than to you he hath said,
to you who for refuge to Jesus hath fled?
is laid for your faith in his excellent word!
What more can he say than to you he hath said,
to you who for refuge to Jesus hath fled?
2. "Fear not, I am with thee, O be not dismayed,
for I am thy God and will still give thee aid.
I'll strengthen thee, help thee, and cause thee to stand,
upheld by my righteous, omnipotent hand.
for I am thy God and will still give thee aid.
I'll strengthen thee, help thee, and cause thee to stand,
upheld by my righteous, omnipotent hand.
3. "When through the deep waters I call thee to go,
the rivers of woe shall not thee overflow.
For I will be with thee, thy troubles to bless,
and sanctify to thee thy deepest distress.
the rivers of woe shall not thee overflow.
For I will be with thee, thy troubles to bless,
and sanctify to thee thy deepest distress.
4. "When through fiery trials thy pathway shall lie,
my grace, all sufficient, shall be thy supply.
The fire shall not hurt thee; I only design
thy dross to consume, and thy gold to refine."
my grace, all sufficient, shall be thy supply.
The fire shall not hurt thee; I only design
thy dross to consume, and thy gold to refine."
6. "The soul that on Jesus hath leaned for repose,
I will not, I will not desert to its foes.
That soul, though all hell should endeavor to shake,
I'll never, no never, no never forsake!"
I will not, I will not desert to its foes.
That soul, though all hell should endeavor to shake,
I'll never, no never, no never forsake!"
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iainduguid
Puritan Board Junior
How Firm a Foundation may not be perfect but it is hardly "making up entire conversations" (and it is a traditional hymn by an unnamed author). It doesn't seem unreasonable to represent God as saying what is in the hymn given the following Scriptures:
“Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.”
~ Isaiah 41:10
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through the fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you.
For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior.”
~ Isaiah 43:1-3
"And I will lead the blind in a way that they do not know, in paths that they have not known I will guide them. I will turn the darkness before them into light, the rough places into level ground. These are the things I do, and I do not forsake them."
~ Isaiah 42:16
Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
~ Heb 13:5 (citing Josh 1:5)
R
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I would not preface any statement with "Thus Saith the Lord", "Jesus says" or "Hear the Word of the Lord" unless I am reading from the Scriptures.
I think if you preface the creeds with "Jesus says" you are giving the impression that you are quoting Jesus, which you are not. The issue is not whether or not the statement is true; The issue is whether or not it is the Word of God, which it is not. I think it would be misleading and actually quite dangerous to say "Jesus says" before quoting a creed.
I agree. I do tell my young children, "God says you need to obey your mama and dada" but I think there's a major difference between that and quoting man's uninspired words (however accurate they are) and attributing them to God.
I think if you preface the creeds with "Jesus says" you are giving the impression that you are quoting Jesus, which you are not. The issue is not whether or not the statement is true; The issue is whether or not it is the Word of God, which it is not. I think it would be misleading and actually quite dangerous to say "Jesus says" before quoting a creed.