Christian Establishmentarianism Throughout the Ages
- Thread starter Christusregnat
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Who runs the site?
Are you sure this thread doesn't belong under Computers and Technology forum as an example of how not to design a web site?
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
-----Added 6/30/2009 at 03:05:37 EST-----
Not sure. That's why I said "Oh, Be careful little eyes!"
Whitefield
Puritan Board Junior
It is pretty ugly.
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
That's right; all establishment needs is another ugly site promoting it. And anonymously on top of that.
On the topic of discussing establishmentarianism, I think it's cool that there's this word in the dictionary: antidisestablishmentarianism
Is it still the longest word in the dictionary?
Is it still the longest word in the dictionary?
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
That's right; all establishment needs is another ugly site promoting it. And anonymously on top of that.
Glad you got my joke.
Cheers,
-----Added 6/30/2009 at 03:17:45 EST-----
In the English dictionary.
toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
I think so...
but here's what was once regarded as the longest place name in the word... would love to hear Derek Thomas pronounce it
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
I was hoping to see some comments that didn't have to do with the graphics of the site...
So what is a good working definition of establishmentarianism?
This might be a good starting point:
Cheers,
The original WCF is establishmentarian while the American revisions strip out those portions. I know Rev. Winzer faithfully represents the establishmentarian view on the PB.
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
It could be argued, however, that the revision merely represents a non-denominational establishment. I agree that it does preclude the original version of the establishment, and that the trajectory was toward what we see in the modern world. But, for a magistrate to be called a "nursing father" to the church, and still be required (in the catechetical explanations) to support and maintain the church is a mild form of establishmentarianism which every office bearer in revised WCF churches agrees to (barring, of course, exceptions).
Cheers,
I really haven't studied the issue in great depth but I know that Rev. Winzer has repeatedly noted that it really requires a Christian magistrate to work itself out in the way that the WCF intended and it would be difficult under our current form of government to have the current administration calling a Synod to resolve a theological controversy.
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
I believe Rev. Winzer is right.
However, the same agument about the difficulty of such an arrangement would have seemed very real to the Christians in the late 200s, early 300s, and yet they were emancipated not long thereafter, with Nicea being called within a quarter of a century.
It reminds me of something I read recently about many of the presbyters at Nicea having mutilated faces, ears, etc. from the persecution throughout their lifetime, to then command kings and empires.
Cheers,
True enough. Historically there are some questions about Constantine's motivations in calling the Council but I believe the Lord used the Providence, whatever his personal motivations, for the good of the Church. Not all was good out of that involvement as he introduced the idea of vestments into the Church as well but I don't want to get off track.
I think the interesting discussion is how a government such as ours could deal with heresy or if it requires a radical Reformation. Part of me wouldn't mind seeing the government protecting people from heresy but they don't really have the tools necessary to detect it given our culture's captivity to non-Christian philosophies.
I'm not against the notion of Establishmentarianism in principle but am weary of certain types.
I'm skating on thin ice here but I think the particular clauses with respect to the Magistrate could be modified a bit to talk about how the principle would operate when the Magistrate is completely hostile to the Christian religion. It doesn't seem like that's the pre-supposition in the original.
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
Pergamum,
The prophet's description is concerning the Messianic age being a time when the kings will be like nursing fathers to God's children. To see what a nursing father is like would not require much more than reading 1 & 2 Samuel, and 1 & 2 Kings, concerning the "good things" that were done by kings.
What role would I want the senator to play in my congregation? I suppose that would depend on what my congregation was doing, teaching, promoting, etc.
A magistrate may safeguard poor dissenting baptists by helping them see the error of their ways
Cheers,
So you would favor a 3rd revision on this point? Maybe something in between the original and the 1788 revisions?
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
I think the same could be stated concerning Romans 13. The principal that the magistrate is God's servant, and to administer His vengence is universally applicable, regardless of the personal or official status of a given magistrate. Just as the rules don't change for faithless husbands; the rules are the same. The church's task is to warn the adulterer, as well as the adulterous magistrate.
Cheers,
A magistrate may safeguard poor dissenting baptists by helping them see the error of their ways
Cheers,
What methods would he employ?
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
It depends in what point of the spectrum one stands.
-----Added 6/30/2009 at 05:56:14 EST-----
Synods, councils, instruction, warning, rebuke; that would be a good start.
Were you hoping I'd go Zwinglian on you?
Cheers,
It depends in what point of the spectrum one stands.
-----Added 6/30/2009 at 05:56:14 EST-----
Synods, councils, instruction, warning, rebuke; that would be a good start.
Were you hoping I'd go Zwinglian on you?
Cheers,
"a good start"? GULP.
If you start there, where will you end?
By the way, sensing the unpopularity and steam of that other word "theonomy," is your use of the term establishmentarianism a new trend for the same platform?
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
I spell God with a capital "g"
Did you read the cite I sent? I introduced a thread on establishmentarianism throughout the centuries. I don't care if Theonomy is an unpopular term.
Cheers,
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