TannedIrishman
Puritan Board Freshman
Hey guys I'm wondering if you could help me out on this. I got into a Facebook discussion on God decreeing evil and yet not sinning. I posited this syllogism:
Regardless of where you land on this issue, I believe the following syllogism still holds:
"i. Anything that begins to exist has a cause.
ii. Nothing that begins to exist, can be its own cause
iii. Therefore if evil began to exist, its cause could not have been evil
We know from scripture both
a) Evil did not always exist
b) God is good
c) God has decreed all that comes to pass."
My good Eastern Orthodox friend is now positing some idea of libertarian free will, I believe and God's decrees that I'm thinking on how to answer. It has all got me thinking and it was a good convo. But he has said something here that would like to get opinions on, the whole nature/person claim made here, is it valid? Also about the human nature of Christ. O have yet to respond. Here is how it went from the portion relevant:
Me: My point was that each and every moment that goes by is ontologically contingent on God. Nothing can therefore come to be without God willing it and according scripture He is working out an eternal plan which is being carried out. Therefore I have to conclude that every occurrence is contingent upon God's ordination. This includes that of the Man Christ Jesus who lived a life that was written in stones and scrolls, way before He came not because God learned by looking into the future or because he had to look into some reality called space-time that exists apart from Him, but simply because he decreed it be so. God's knowledge is innate and does not require observation in order to recieve. And since He is the creator of all things, the only thing that can or will occur is that which He wills. Looking into the future for God would be equivalent to deciding what he wants to do. It is in that sense that I say all things non God are contingent. His decree is the basis for it all.
Them: Josué Adido, thank you for your reply. I would respectfully say you seem to now be asserting your point, based on ontologically contingency, to get to personal necessity. You need to demonstrate that in an argument, how ontological contingency (i.e. we exist because God sustains us) = I only do that which is already necessitated.
As for foreknowledge, given the Trinity is timeless, I don't see how one can say they "peered into the future" , given that would be to suppose the Trinity is in existence. And given space/time does not exist prior to creation (unless you hold to an eternal creation), God does not have to look upon it. These things are already within the mind of God given they do not exist. And one need not have God necessitating all things in order for God to know fully all things in an innate fashion, but if you want to show that, that needs to be argued, not asserted again.
As for all things happening because God allows it, I hold to such as well. What I see the leap in your thinking, is assuming God's predestining of nature, is equal to the predestining of persons. I exist because God continues to sustain my nature (without which I would cease to be), but given humanity is made in God's image, we have, like God, the freedom of choice. As for evil, if you include evil as a necessary thing, that seems to imply that God necessitates sin to happen. If such, how is that not sinful itself, given human agents (who as Ryan said, their will is simply an effect of God's cause) have no freedom to do other than that which is necessitated upon them?
That is compatiblism through and through. So if I may ask, could Christ choose against his own human nature, given he assumed the post-lapsarian humanity of man?
*he is positing that God can have knowledge of a world without predestining persons. While I'm saying His foreknowledge is on the basis of His decrees*
Regardless of where you land on this issue, I believe the following syllogism still holds:
"i. Anything that begins to exist has a cause.
ii. Nothing that begins to exist, can be its own cause
iii. Therefore if evil began to exist, its cause could not have been evil
We know from scripture both
a) Evil did not always exist
b) God is good
c) God has decreed all that comes to pass."
My good Eastern Orthodox friend is now positing some idea of libertarian free will, I believe and God's decrees that I'm thinking on how to answer. It has all got me thinking and it was a good convo. But he has said something here that would like to get opinions on, the whole nature/person claim made here, is it valid? Also about the human nature of Christ. O have yet to respond. Here is how it went from the portion relevant:
Me: My point was that each and every moment that goes by is ontologically contingent on God. Nothing can therefore come to be without God willing it and according scripture He is working out an eternal plan which is being carried out. Therefore I have to conclude that every occurrence is contingent upon God's ordination. This includes that of the Man Christ Jesus who lived a life that was written in stones and scrolls, way before He came not because God learned by looking into the future or because he had to look into some reality called space-time that exists apart from Him, but simply because he decreed it be so. God's knowledge is innate and does not require observation in order to recieve. And since He is the creator of all things, the only thing that can or will occur is that which He wills. Looking into the future for God would be equivalent to deciding what he wants to do. It is in that sense that I say all things non God are contingent. His decree is the basis for it all.
Them: Josué Adido, thank you for your reply. I would respectfully say you seem to now be asserting your point, based on ontologically contingency, to get to personal necessity. You need to demonstrate that in an argument, how ontological contingency (i.e. we exist because God sustains us) = I only do that which is already necessitated.
As for foreknowledge, given the Trinity is timeless, I don't see how one can say they "peered into the future" , given that would be to suppose the Trinity is in existence. And given space/time does not exist prior to creation (unless you hold to an eternal creation), God does not have to look upon it. These things are already within the mind of God given they do not exist. And one need not have God necessitating all things in order for God to know fully all things in an innate fashion, but if you want to show that, that needs to be argued, not asserted again.
As for all things happening because God allows it, I hold to such as well. What I see the leap in your thinking, is assuming God's predestining of nature, is equal to the predestining of persons. I exist because God continues to sustain my nature (without which I would cease to be), but given humanity is made in God's image, we have, like God, the freedom of choice. As for evil, if you include evil as a necessary thing, that seems to imply that God necessitates sin to happen. If such, how is that not sinful itself, given human agents (who as Ryan said, their will is simply an effect of God's cause) have no freedom to do other than that which is necessitated upon them?
That is compatiblism through and through. So if I may ask, could Christ choose against his own human nature, given he assumed the post-lapsarian humanity of man?
*he is positing that God can have knowledge of a world without predestining persons. While I'm saying His foreknowledge is on the basis of His decrees*
