A Statement Concerning Ordained Deaconesses in the ARP Church
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Kevin
Puritan Board Doctor
Thanks!
This is a practical, orthodox, pastoral, & confessional response to this issue. In my humble opinion.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
*Bump*
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Good Question. I'll see what I can find out.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Wrong thread
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
I can appreciate the spirit of this approach being something along the lines of unity in essentials, liberty in nonessentials, and charity in all things.
The difficulty I have with this is that something as fundamental as qualification for high church office being left to a "local option." We have in view here an elected, ordained, authoritative office with explicit qualifications in God's Word. Particularly in Reformed and Presbyterian circles, church government is important.
It seems pragmatism (i.e. a practical response) is grounded on what seems most expedient in the circumstances rather than determining God's will.
While I am aware the ARP has an admirable long and steady history of biblical faithfulness, my understanding is that most of her history has been without a "local option" on this doctrine.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
It is also worth noting that in my experience Deaconesses are not allowed to chair the Board or have any authoritative role.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
What is "authority"?
I'm aware there has been some discussion about the definition and whether the office of Deacon "has authority."
As I understand it, the office of Deacon does have authority in the biblical sense of church governance. It is often described alongside Elder in the Scripture. My best understanding of this is that a Deacon has administrative authority (to oversee mercy ministry, to develope a spirit of liberality in the congregation regarding giving, to oversee stewardship of the property, etc.).
Perhaps an analogy would be a board of directors are ultimately responsible for strategic direction of a company (somewhat like Elders), whereas chief executive officers have administrative authority (somewhat like Deacons). One might say employees (somewhat like church members) have some authority, more like task authority, but it is overseen by management which is governed by the board of directors.
I think Scripture sets out something like this for authority- certainly with lots of "task authority" for women and men (e.g. involvement in service, mercy ministry, diaconal ministry) but under the higher levels of authority (and accountability) of Deacons and Elders. Every part is essential for the whole, it's not a question of "worth" but more a question of function.
I'm aware there has been some discussion about the definition and whether the office of Deacon "has authority."
As I understand it, the office of Deacon does have authority in the biblical sense of church governance. It is often described alongside Elder in the Scripture. My best understanding of this is that a Deacon has administrative authority (to oversee mercy ministry, to develope a spirit of liberality in the congregation regarding giving, to oversee stewardship of the property, etc.).
Perhaps an analogy would be a board of directors are ultimately responsible for strategic direction of a company (somewhat like Elders), whereas chief executive officers have administrative authority (somewhat like Deacons). One might say employees (somewhat like church members) have some authority, more like task authority, but it is overseen by management which is governed by the board of directors.
I think Scripture sets out something like this for authority- certainly with lots of "task authority" for women and men (e.g. involvement in service, mercy ministry, diaconal ministry) but under the higher levels of authority (and accountability) of Deacons and Elders. Every part is essential for the whole, it's not a question of "worth" but more a question of function.
Interesting. Since the office of deacon (according to some) has no authority, I wonder why an ARP church would stop a deaconess from doing anything a deacon does.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
(By the way do any of the other ARP's know when exactly the ARP adopted Deaconesses?)
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Interesting. Since the office of deacon (according to some) has no authority, I wonder why an ARP church would stop a deaconess from doing anything a deacon does.
Good question. I am trying to ascertain that as we speak from my more knowledgeable ARP contacts.
At least in my local congregation we have what they call "Deacon-Trustees" and "Caretaker-Deacons". The Male Deacons are the former and the Deaconess is the later.
Kevin
Puritan Board Doctor
Interesting. Since the office of deacon (according to some) has no authority, I wonder why an ARP church would stop a deaconess from doing anything a deacon does.
Because the scripture teaches that women aught not to rule over men.
Kevin
Puritan Board Doctor
What happens when an ordained deaconess in one ARP church transfers to another ARP church that feels women cannot be so ordained?
The same thing thet happens when an elder or deacon transfers to an other congregation. They are recieved as members.
The office is exercised locally. Just as a man may be a suitable deacon/elder in one congregation & yet never be nominated to the same office in an other congregation, so it would be with a deaconess. She would never be nominated to that office in the new congregation.
Interesting. Since the office of deacon (according to some) has no authority, I wonder why an ARP church would stop a deaconess from doing anything a deacon does.
Because the scripture teaches that women aught not to rule over men.
Oh. So the office of deacon is one of some authority, then, in your view? Because if deacons have no authority, then it would not matter if a man or a woman was the chairman of that Board.
But then again, if the office of deacon had authority, then women should not be deacons. Good luck eating your cake, and then having it also.
Kevin
Puritan Board Doctor
The office of deacon is an office of service.
Deacons also have "authority" over some areas. Authority over the lawn maintenance, for example. Or, authority over distribution of the food pantry, for an other example. In some cases they also have "authority" over crisis pregnancy ministries, or counseling young women in other circumstances.
In some cases the deacons will have "authority" of a different type. When chairing meetings or serving on (some) boards. In these cases the office includes *some* degree of authority over men & in those cases women do not (ordinarily) serve.
I am now going to eat a piece of cake.
Deacons also have "authority" over some areas. Authority over the lawn maintenance, for example. Or, authority over distribution of the food pantry, for an other example. In some cases they also have "authority" over crisis pregnancy ministries, or counseling young women in other circumstances.
In some cases the deacons will have "authority" of a different type. When chairing meetings or serving on (some) boards. In these cases the office includes *some* degree of authority over men & in those cases women do not (ordinarily) serve.
I am now going to eat a piece of cake.
So in every one of the cases you mention, a woman deacon, including one who (non-ordinarily) serves in authority has authority over men, in direct contradiction of 1 Timothy 2:12. What if the head of the pregnancy help center was a man (as is usually the case for board members)?
Does your translation of 1 Timothy 2:12 say, "not to have authority over men, except in non-ordinary cases, and cases of service" ?
Kevin
Puritan Board Doctor
Sorry, brother Fred, but I was busy eating cake...
Did I understand your position to be that when you wife serves you dinner she has "authority" over you?
Or, if she hires the 16 year old neighborhood boy to mow the lawn she is "exercising authority over a man"?
And is she thus in violation of 1 Tim 2:12?
Did I understand your position to be that when you wife serves you dinner she has "authority" over you?
Or, if she hires the 16 year old neighborhood boy to mow the lawn she is "exercising authority over a man"?
And is she thus in violation of 1 Tim 2:12?
No, but if my wife is in charge of whether the lawn is mowed or not, and who is to mow it, regardless of my decision, that is authority.
When my family sits down at the dinner table, my wife does not "chair" the discussion or household.
Or do deacons in your church simply run around with no structure, allowing members in the church to do whatever they wish? Does no one decide to whom financial assistance is given? Do your deacons never investigate whether financial assistance is warranted by looking into personal finances and responsibility?
Did the apostles have no authority at all over tables before they handed over the task to the new deacons? Or could the members simply have said - " Nice suggestion, John, but you don't have any authority here. After all, this is a matter of service."
I go back to the idea that "deaconess" is naming a function not an office. I hold that function, both because of the role of my husband in our church and because of my position within our women's organization. But I would never want to hold the office because it would not square with scripture to do so. My husband and I were discussing this recently because it seems that there are times (someone earlier mentioned intervening in a pregnancy situation) when it is much more seemly to have a woman involved than for a man (or men) to approach and deal with the practical needs of the situation.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Interesting. Since the office of deacon (according to some) has no authority, I wonder why an ARP church would stop a deaconess from doing anything a deacon does.
Good question. I am trying to ascertain that as we speak from my more knowledgeable ARP contacts.
At least in my local congregation we have what they call "Deacon-Trustees" and "Caretaker-Deacons". The Male Deacons are the former and the Deaconess is the later.
Update:
I have talked to several ARP ministers in several Presbyteries and they have told me that Deaconesses are rare and seem to exist only in churches that have come in from other denominations (like mine which was a former PC(USA) congregation).
It is also worth noting that the (to play on the "significant controversy" on Warfield) largest church in the denomination, Sinclair Ferguson's 1st ARP Church of Columbia, SC does not, as far as I know, have Deaconesses.
Zenas
Snow Miser
Hmmm, as far as I know my church has been in the ARP forever, and we allow them. I suppose we're an exception. We don't have them, but they are technically allowed.
From my impression, it seems they were allowed where there were few to no men around to serve in the capacity. Now that there are men, men fill the roll. I personally disagree with the stance that women should be deacons, but I don't exercise that opinion in my congregation.
From my impression, it seems they were allowed where there were few to no men around to serve in the capacity. Now that there are men, men fill the roll. I personally disagree with the stance that women should be deacons, but I don't exercise that opinion in my congregation.
I could not find a date for a change for allowing women to the office of deacon. The Constitution of 1955 does not make a note of it that I could see. I am presuming this is a later 20th century change?
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
I was told 1968 was the Synod that changed this.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Yours must be one of three in MVP that does then Zenas.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
It's my understanding that FPC Columbia indeed has deaconesses, but I could be wrong
I do not know for any semblance of a fact only by looking at their website.
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